11/ I am wondering how much these “models” are suited for a global economy. The US might be able to control its inflation inside its own country, by dramatically reducing importation. But if a country is a massive importer, I don’t see how you can control inflation… or it depends on What Inflation Is. Which is… what I’m struggling with. I think their simplistic models are crashing with the Real World here.
12/ People have told me before that inflation is what happens when the “economy is overheated” (too much spending/consumption) so increasing interest rates are a way to “cool down the economy”. But that makes zero sense for Norway right now.
13/ I don’t see any sign of the Norwegian economy being “overheated”. What I see is the opposite tbh. People seem to be struggling financially much more than I’ve seen in decades.
14/ What is a problem is that the NOK to USD/Euro exchange rate weak. So imports are more expensive. But to “fix” that the central bank has raised the interest rate. Which means people who were already struggling with higher prices now also get hit with higher interest rates.
15/ And young people and families are being hit the hardest because they are either renters (and rents are increasing because of the interest rates and the cooling of construction because of the higher import costs and higher intrest rates) or early homeowners with big mortgages.
16/ Meanwhile the politicians are on TV saying “Well Actually The Economy Is Going Great”. But the only sectors that seem to be doing great are those who are exporting (being paid in foreign currency) and that’s because they are raking in on the NOK being weak, and that’s not “the economy” that’s just gambling.
17/ So basically, I don’t see that the interest rate is the appropriate tool for strengthening the NOK. Except to put on a show for people who think Milton Friedman is a person who had anything reasonable to say.

18/ In my opinion the most logical thing is that the NOK is down for the same reason gold is way up: people are scared. Russia invaded Ukraine, Israel is pushing for a regional war in the Middle East and… let’s be honest here: the US might elect a fascist dictator in a few months.

Basically NOBODY will make the decision to buy NOK no matter what the interest rate is. They are putting their money where they think it’s safe and that isn’t a tiny economy by the polar circle.

19/ I’m starting to conclude that this is yet another Friedman-model fuckup.
20/ To be honest, I’m not even sure that MMT would work for a tiny economy based mostly on imports of household goods and selling bottled up carbon emissions to the world.
21/ I am getting increasingly disillusioned with economics as an explanation model for anything other than a bunch of powerful people who like to hear themselves talk.
22/ And people are so keen on simple explanations they are willing to close their eyes to reality.

23/ One thing that is very Norwegian, and relevant here, we are a high-trust society. On every level. But for this particular matter: we trust our government much more than most other populations. And if they say the interest rate has to go up, we say: OK.

But what if they’re just wrong?

24/ but I think the currency lens is probably the right one, but not MMT (or maybe I’ll change my mind when I’m further in). From the little I have read we (the Norwegian government) are both the biggest buyers AND the biggest sellers of our own currency: we sell massive amounts of NOK to the oil companies, because they need it to pay tax, but now we have a lot of NOK that are mostly going into our sovereign wealth fund, which invests (mostly/exclusively?) outside of the country (I think this decision was specifically to not “heat up” the economy with too much money). But to invest abroad the sovereign wealth fund needs to sell a lot of NOK.
25/ so maybe we CAN influence the NOK, but not through interest rates, but rather by… reducing foreign investments by the sovereign wealth fund instead. Funnily enough this idea is based on the most basic economic theory: supply and demand.
26/ And all indicators are showing that it’s not working. The price of the NOK isn’t really being affected by the interest rate. It is being affected by What Everyone Else Is Doing. This weakness of the NOK doesn’t seem to have much to do with Norway at all. We’re just a too esoteric (and small) currency for a global market whose risk appetite is low.
27/ Looking at the NOK vs USD and Euro and the gold price in dollars. When people are all in on gold they’re not buying the currency of “the capital of Sweden” (old joke about nobody knowing we exist)
28/ I love how much she uses the words “believe” and “faith” - gets across how religion-like it is.

29/ It’s clear to me now why they are using the interest rate. It is the only tool they have. They have one single knob, one single variable, so they have to use it even if they know that it won’t work against the problem they’re facing. Because it was never meant to solve the problem they’re facing.

More generally, I don’t know that importing a Friedman model from the US, which has a massive economy and The Most Popular currency, makes any sense for us.

30/ Maybe they have been trying to do exactly what I’m saying here? Reducing the amount of NOK they are unloading onto the market.
https://www.dn.no/makrookonomi/norges-bank/makrookonomi/norges-bank-oker-kronesalget-til-550-mill-kroner-per-dag-i-mai/2-1-1635409
Norges Bank øker kronesalget til 550 mill. kroner per dag i mai

Etter fire måneder på rad med uendret kronesalg, økes beløpet i mai.

DN.no
31/ Seems to correlate? This is the central banks “governing interest rate”
32/ Lol, looking at all these graphs together… it doesn’t seem to matter either. So maybe the problem is rather that there is no market for NOK right now. Only what we force into existence by making oil companies pay us in NOK for taxes.
33/ Which, to be fair, is fully in line with MMT: taxes’ primary purpose is to create demand for your own currency, not to fund anything.
34/ But then I don’t think there is any good reason for increasing interest rates. It is clearly not having any effect outside of making folks that were already struggling with increased food prices even more financially insecure.

35/ it’s funny how Norwegian newspapers and even the central bank are not even pretending this has anything to do with us. You want to know what numbers the Norwegian central bank is looking at to figure out if they can lower the Norwegian interest rate?

The unemployment rate in the United States of America.
https://e24.no/internasjonal-oekonomi/i/Xj6olo/viktige-jobbtall-kan-skyve-paa-rentehaapet-fed-har-tatt-feil-foer

https://www.nrk.no/ytring/det-haster-overhodet-ikke-med-rentekutt-1.16778904

https://www.norges-bank.no/contentassets/d0bfbe13692a4dc28d569698605e2c8d/ppr-2-24.pdf?v=20062024135632

Viktige jobbtall kan skyve på rentehåpet: – Fed har tatt feil før

Amerikanske jobbtall kan skyve på forventningene om rentekutt i USA, men det er prisveksten som bekymrer Storebrand-forvalter Olav Chen.

36/ Turns out that the pre-Friedman King of Economy, John Maynard Keynes, agreed with me (according to the book), or the quote is about the opposite (about lowering the interest rate to make people take out loans)… but it turns out to be kind of the same for the NOK 🤪

“You can’t push on a string”
Turns out that perhaps the quote is misattributed 😅
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushing_on_a_string

My point being: you can try to make your currency attractive, but you can’t make people buy it.

And I posit that the NOK is weak because the planet is fucked and everybody knows it.

Pushing on a string - Wikipedia

37/ … huh this sounds familiar actually (thanks @malwareminigun)
https://youtu.be/q4k8SGmJqIA?si=MbtjKvkm6uxnl_54
How George Soros Broke the Bank of England

YouTube
38/ Apparently one of the things you can do in our situation is to increase salaries. Because the currency thing is making goods a lot more expensive an increase in salaries could make that gap smaller. And we did that. Sort of. The government blessed a really good deal between the employers and the unions.
39/ However, here we meet another weird dynamic: in Norwegian union “culture” they negotiate first with the export industry. Because the thinking goes that they are more sensitive because they are exposed to currency fluctuations. But remember they are raking it in on the currency exchange. So now that deal is pretty great for workers. But… the rest of the Norwegian economy is not great and they get hit with yet another blow: first imports got way more expensive, then the interest rates shot up (absolutely doing its job of cooling our not-hot economy) and now salaries shoot up.

40/ And one sector is particularly vulnerable: construction. Because:

1. Materials (imported) are much more expensive
2. Interest rates are way up, so a lot of projects are halted due to financing
3. They are dominated by highly unionized workers and their salaries just went up (because the unions didn’t negotiate with them, they negotiated with the swimming in money export sector)

So all sorts of companies associated with construction are going bankrupt.

41/ Which means, as @intarga
points out, housing prices are not going down as we expected.
https://hachyderm.io/@intarga/112719682482183505
Ingrid (@[email protected])

@[email protected] I find the interest rate situation in Norway extra annoying, because even with it not working to bring down inflation, the one silver lining it should have had was to cool the housing market. Instead, house prices are still going up because we completely stopped building 🙄🙄🙄

Hachyderm.io
42/ The interest rate hikes are making a hard situation worse by “cooling” the wrong economy. We are getting a higher interest rate because America has lower unemployment (I am really happy for y’all though).

43/ And that gets us the whole “what is inflation?”. Because if it is that it is harder to make ends meet because everything is more expensive. Then they are actually creating MORE inflation.

Yeah, we are exposed to the exchange rate, but now we are killing the economy that’s supposed to compensate, while driving actual living costs even further through the roof.

44/ Housing is also a weird market in general, because once you’re in, you buy and sell in the same market. So that market becomes sort of disconnected from everything else. Because demand is constant and supply is pretty constrained: the people selling their homes and newly built stuff.

But with no construction the supply is even more constrained, and the people buying are mostly the people selling, so it becomes a strange closed loop system.

45/ However, if you are a renter you are also getting hit, again by different effects. The current left coalition (and previous iterations) have wanted to make it less lucrative to be a landlord. So margins have shrunk due to higher taxes etc. But a lot of this has been funded through loans, and so those margins are getting squeezed further. So landlords are either selling off their properties, which are often in the cities, or raising rents. But the housing market is undersupplied so it just absorbs these properties.

So now we have fewer rental properties, which would drive up prices on its own (according to economic theory 😅), but the remaining market is also increasing rent to compensate for higher interest rates.

So even if you rent you are getting hit by the interest rate. And actually it’s worse there, because rents will for sure not go down in the same way mortgages will if/when they reduce the interest rate.

46/ Or in kubernetes analogy (because of Cybercyn and the book The Unaccountability Machine): some stuff in our system (the Norwegian housing market) are auto-scaling in some cloud, some are manually scaled (by buying and adding new servers in our on prem data center) and once the peak in consumption is over, some things might scale down quickly, but some are stuck now with a lot of expensive hardware taking up space in our server racks.

Mortgages are in AWS and rents are on-prem in my very confusing analogy.

47/ I don’t know what the answer is, my earlier idea of constraining the supply of NOK… it looks like they did that, and it had apparently about as much effect as the interest rate (not much if any).

Maybe without these two things it would’ve spiraled out of control… but I don’t think so, because this wasn’t caused by our economy.

So maybe the best thing would’ve been to just accept it? Yeah, the NOK is weak, because the world is rough, increase salaries some and just sit tight? Maybe even stimulate internal growth to compensate?

48/ And maybe the bottom dropped out from under the NOK, but the whole oil tax thing will keep it from dying. Because there will always be buyers, because they have no other choice.
49/ is it possible that they are so afraid of “inflation” they are actually creating “inflation”? (Where each “inflation” is a different flavor of inflation)
50/ I told you, inflation is much harder to grok than I thought, because it’s much less well-defined than they say it is. It seems economists don’t actually know what it is, they just know some of its shapes. Unfortunately, the current Norwegian shape is not the stereotypical one. And the Norwegian central bank only has one hammer and it was made for the stereotypical case.
51/ Ok, I’m still on the inflation chapter (but getting towards the end, I promise), and I think I get at least one of the major changes MMT wants to do: To manage the economy through fiscal policy: spending more/less and increasing/lowering taxes, instead of through monetary policy: raising/lowering interest rates.

52/ Ok, I think I get it. MMT says that a deficit isn’t a sign of government overspending, inflation is. (And here they are clearly talking about the overheated economy inflation) So as long as the spending doesn’t cause inflation, it doesn’t matter if you run with a deficit even over a longer period (she mentioned decades).

So basically she is sort of saying that deficits aren’t real because taxes aren’t real.

This is more like the water in a radiator system (my analogy). You can add in water or remove water, but the system isn’t the water. And adding water (money) only becomes a problem when the pressure in the system gets too high and water starts spilling out somewhere.

Basically, money isn’t “real”. It’s… just water in a radiator system in a building. The building and the radiators and the people living there are the real things.

53/ Ok, fine. Y’all have told me over and over to read Steve Keen, and I would’ve if he had a freaking audiobook, but he does have a podcast, so let’s do a crossover, because he has an episode on MMT.
(h/t @joelving and the 5 other people who have brought it up)
https://mastodon.joelving.dk/@joelving/112720891429481986
Peter Toft Jølving (@[email protected])

@[email protected] @[email protected] Most economic forecasting models are relatively simple and don't require supercomputers (because the models are oversimplified). Steve Keen takes a System Dynamics approach and has many more feedback loops in his models. He's also one of the fiercest critics of mainstream economics I know of, for many of the same reasons @[email protected] is. Worth looking up, if it interests you.

Mastodon
54/ Hopefully the link to the episode works, title is “Does Modern Monetary Theory make sense?”
https://debunkingeconomics.com/episode/does-modern-monetary-theory-make-sense
Does Modern Monetary Theory make sense? | Debunking Economics - the podcast

Modern Monetary Theory states that’s, because the government of a country is the monopoly supplier of money, it has an unlimited capacity to pay for things and...

Debunking Economics - the podcast
55/ Short recap: he basically agrees with MMT on most things. One thing came up though which is relevant to my discussion here about Norway, and that is that the USD is not a normal currency, and it can get away with a lot the rest of us can’t. The term he used was “reserve currency”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
Reserve currency - Wikipedia

56/ Here is the clip, I have no idea if he’s right or not about this particular argument, but I do think that (as far as I’ve gotten in the book) MMT seems very US centric and I also wonder if this protection they get from being a “universal global currency” protects them in ways they might not be completely aware of.
57/ The parts of MMT that I like are the descriptive parts. Where they just talk about How Stuff Works In Practice. The problem I have (and tbh they are by far the worst here) is that when they slip over from descriptive to prescriptive it’s like they don’t even notice. They go straight from How Stuff Works to My Opinion without skipping a beat. And then I start to wonder if they can even tell the difference.
58/ Another interesting clip from Keen where they talk about how to “create money”:
1. Through exports
2. Printing money
3. Borrowing from banks
59/ Ah nice, finally we have some mention of a more “global” economy. And this is where I want to learn more “trade deficit” vs “trade surplus” and how it interacts with currencies.
60/ someone asked about this buying and selling of NOK when it comes to the sovereign wealth fund. And the Norwegian central bank has a page on it in English! And it has pictures 😃
https://www.norges-bank.no/en/topics/liquidity-and-markets/Foreign-exchange-purchases-for-GPFG/
Norges Bank’s foreign exchange transactions on behalf of the government

The Norwegian government receives revenues in both NOK and foreign currency from petroleum activities. Some of these revenues are used to finance a planned central government budget deficit. Norges Bank carries out the necessary foreign exchange transactions associated with petroleum revenue spending. These foreign exchange transactions are planned and smoothed over the year and are pre-announced each month.

61/ Based on this is it possible that Norway is actually doing MMT? Sort of? But instead of “printing money” they are covering a planned deficit with the earnings from its petroleum export?

62/ I feel so smart when I read news articles that agree with me 🤓 🤣
“And an interest rate increase will not help, he believes. - The higher the interest rate goes, the more landlords have to raise the rent, and then the interest rate increase is inflationary. It does not have the same effect as in the housing market, where prices fall if interest rates rise. The interest rate is not a good weapon to deal with this kind of inflation. It makes matters worse, he says.”
https://e24.no/norsk-oekonomi/i/93zl4d/uenige-om-leieprisene-det-gjoer-vondt-verre

https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112720508129615142

Uenige om leieprisene: – Det gjør vondt verre

Vil leieprisene knuse drømmen om rentekutt, eller har det lite å si? To sjeføkonomer er uenige om effekten.

63/ What is absolutely hilarious is that the effect he describes on the housing market is actually not happening. But this is yet another time the terrain is wrong for not fitting their map.
64/ Real estate prices are up 8% this year, that’s bananas. But I guess it’s like the gold, people are investing in their homes, and maybe also the fact that it is a closed loop system. So until people start defaulting on their loans, the real estate market won’t feel it.

65/ After spending ages on inflation, I’m apparently breezing through chapter 3 “The National Debt (That Isn’t)”

Basically, in the same way tax isn’t real (in that it is just a mechanism to remove money from the economy and/or create demand for the currency. MMT says that the deficit isn’t real. Very clear that it is the US they are talking about. To generalize to more countries she picked the UK and I would’ve preferred another more “normal” country.

@Patricia I’d have expected some qualifiers on that: deficits aren’t real, so long as…
@BenAveling there’s a whole chapter 😂 but the basic idea is the radiator model from earlier in the thread and of course that you can use MMT (the 3 requirements towards the beginning of the thread). It’s confusing, but from the point of view of the central bank, there are no restrictions on money, they can literally make it up, the only thing that is “real” is inflation (the radiator system springs a leak somewhere due to too high pressure in the pipes). So as long as that doesn’t happen, you can pump as much money/water into the economy/radiator-system as you want. And a deficit is then just a bookkeeping issue. Because if/when you need the money you can just create it. Also, apparently the Chinese don’t want it back, from their point of view it’s in a bank account 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’m just reading the book, I don’t know if it’s “right” 😅
@BenAveling the three requirements for MMT to be available as a tool
https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112718351291256230
Patricia Aas (@[email protected])

10/ I am trying to understand chapter 2 again, it is called “Think of inflation”. She is speaking very much from a US perspective, and so my attempt to map to Norway in my head is not always working. But I think Norway fits the criteria: 1. Has its own currency: NOK Norwegian kroner 2. The currency is not tied to a foreign currency (as opposed to Denmark who has now tied its currency DKK to the Euro) 3. Does not have debt in a foreign currency. (I don’t think we do, we have a massive sovereign wealth fund instead, which is only (mostly?) invested abroad)

Vivaldi Social
Patricia Aas (@[email protected])

52/ Ok, I think I get it. MMT says that a deficit isn’t a sign of government overspending, inflation is. (And here they are clearly talking about the overheated economy inflation) So as long as the spending doesn’t cause inflation, it doesn’t matter if you run with a deficit even over a longer period (she mentioned decades). So basically she is sort of saying that deficits aren’t real because taxes aren’t real. This is more like the water in a radiator system (my analogy). You can add in water or remove water, but the system isn’t the water. And adding water (money) only becomes a problem when the pressure in the system gets too high and water starts spilling out somewhere. Basically, money isn’t “real”. It’s… just water in a radiator system in a building. The building and the radiators and the people living there are the real things.

Vivaldi Social
@BenAveling tbh, I’m not sure how this would work with a less important currency like the NOK. I’m thinking printing money, would much more easily lead to devaluation for a regular currency.

@Patricia @BenAveling MMT'ers would balk at your description of MMT as something you do. MMT (the theory) is descriptive and not restricted to reserve currencies.

What they mean when they say "the national debt isn't real" is that it's a misnomer designed to invoke fear, when in reality it's just the amount of private and foreign savings in USD.
The same goes for NOK. Whatever money the government has not yet claimed in taxes can hardly be called a debt, and it certainly can't be repayed.

@joelving @BenAveling Like I mentioned before it isn’t just descriptive. It’s prescriptive too. And they are not great at pointing out when they go from one to the other. One thing for example is the idea to give a government work guarantee. So if there isn’t enough jobs in private sector the government will hire everyone who wants a job. And there are more changes they need too, because to make sure liberal spending doesn’t lead to inflation they need to be able to raise taxes fast.
@joelving @BenAveling and tbh I do think a lot of this immunity to consequences they believe in does have a lot to do with being a reserve currency. Someone shared an article earlier… I’ll see if I can find it.
@Patricia @BenAveling As I recall, they're pretty upfront about that not being MMT, but policy prescriptions that they support *based on* the insights from MMT.
@Patricia @BenAveling One thing to also keep in mind. There have to be water in the system at the begining which only the state (with the central bank) can provide. The state provides the executive part of the state with money it can just create to protect those with property and then you tax the property (and everything else). So there is some money to spend on the market and those with property need to get their money to pay the tax. So they produce more, work for money, etc.
@wackJackle @BenAveling yeah, I think I write about that early on in this thread.
@Patricia @BenAveling as a complete financial layperson I tried to make sense of MMT a while back when a whole bunch of people tried to explain it to me. I couldn't. It feels like fiscal voodoo.
@rainynight65 @BenAveling I’m not saying that MMT is right, but the radiator metaphor at the end of this post helped me.
https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112720730242564693
Patricia Aas (@[email protected])

52/ Ok, I think I get it. MMT says that a deficit isn’t a sign of government overspending, inflation is. (And here they are clearly talking about the overheated economy inflation) So as long as the spending doesn’t cause inflation, it doesn’t matter if you run with a deficit even over a longer period (she mentioned decades). So basically she is sort of saying that deficits aren’t real because taxes aren’t real. This is more like the water in a radiator system (my analogy). You can add in water or remove water, but the system isn’t the water. And adding water (money) only becomes a problem when the pressure in the system gets too high and water starts spilling out somewhere. Basically, money isn’t “real”. It’s… just water in a radiator system in a building. The building and the radiators and the people living there are the real things.

Vivaldi Social

@Patricia I don't follow the radiator analogy.
My simple understanding currently is (and I should acknowledge that each of these was once a revelation to me and that journey is incomplete)

1. money is debt.
2. government debt is fundamentally different to household debt.

I think we've covered the first one. (But note that it surprises people)

The second one, and maybe we're retreading ground already covered, but so be it.

cont...

@Patricia Household debt is about balancing consumption over a lifetime. We borrow to buy a car, a house, which we then use while we repay the debt.
Government debt's not like that, because governments are, for practical purposes, immortal. It doesn't need to be repaid, or if it does, it can be rolled over and funded with extra debt.
Extra debt can always be issued (printed). But there are consequences.

cont...

@Patricia The immediate consequence of printing money is that all the money you've already printed becomes worth less. (Not worthless, just, worth less)

Over simplification, but imagine you have a fixed supply of goods, and a certain supply of money. And you print a lot more money, as much again, for example.

Suddenly, you have twice the currency chasing the same quantity of goods. Absent price fixing (which is a whole 'nuther issue), the price of goods will double.

So far so good?

@BenAveling according to how I understand MMT, money isn’t really anything other than an instrument that you (the state) use to provide a convenient way to pay for stuff. It has no fixed size. It can be conjured out of thin air and burned to the ground. It’s just a driver for passing the heat around the building ie the water. The amount of water doesn’t matter, we don’t have to buy it and we don’t have to give it back. We have a tap of free water. So we can put more money in when that makes sense and take some out when that makes sense. There is no speed limit, only the capacity of the system to take the water/heat.
66/ Ok, done with chapter 3, the above sums it up, maybe with an addition that she is very pro-deficit, to the point that she’d like to give it another name. The whole thing is very idealistic, and that part should probably have been discussed beforehand. Because in effect the ideology and The Plan is mixed in with what is presented as descriptive. And maybe it’s just me, but I like it when the agenda is very clear and when the shifts between what is claimed to be descriptive and what is prescriptive is clear and emphasized.

67/ To be fair, I think that issue is pervasive in the whole field. They are not able to separate ideology from models of the economy. And then they infuse in morality and destiny and Right and Wrong in these models until it’s more mythology than science.

And I don’t mind ideology. I have a great helping myself. But when you’re already in a non rigorous field, mixing opinions into “models” makes the whole thing even less serious.

A complex system is what it is. You find out the shape of it empirically. You can form hypotheses, design experiments and test. You don’t sit in a corner and Devine It. You might have a famous “shower thought” but then you test.

And seriously, these people (economists) don’t test ANYTHING.

68/ I really thought I’d be more convinced by leftist economists. But they are methodically all very similar. And it is the methodology I have issue with in this whole… project(?).

This field has imo structural issues and they aren’t fixed by the practitioner being less of an ass.

The problem is they believe in these simplistic models and that is standing in the way of developing the kind of tooling, discipline and humility needed when working with complex systems imo.

69/ anyway, next chapter: 4. Their Red Ink Is Our Black Ink
70/ Related to this, if you had a billion dollars and you were convinced that we were facing a climate catastrophe which might even be an extinction level event. Where would you put your money to try to save it (don’t say you’d give it away, because you didn’t become a billionaire by giving stuff away)?
https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112719504676456386
Patricia Aas (@[email protected])

When you quote me I hope you pick the best quotes: “And I posit that the NOK is weak because the planet is fucked and everybody knows it.” https://social.vivaldi.net/@Patricia/112719497998588756

Vivaldi Social
@Patricia broadly speaking: you can't. Since money is just the working fluid of the radiator, at a global level there's no mechanism for “savings” to exist.
71/ Couldn’t get excited about chapter 4 and 5 seems so much more interesting because it is about trade.

@Patricia I remember reading about how trade deficits aren't really a problem for the US because of being the reserve currency.

This covers it a little bit https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/061515/what-happens-us-dollar-during-trade-deficit.asp

What Happens to the U.S. Dollar During a Trade Deficit?

Trade deficits happen when imports exceed exports. During a trade deficit, the U.S. dollar generally weakens, driving foreign investment.

Investopedia
@Paxxi oh that’s so funny. Because the model breaks, but they get so handwavy and look the other way. “Well actually, it should work like this, but it doesn’t, but it’s complicated” 😂

@Patricia haha yeah 😀

I'm thinking that whatever the Americans come up with is probably not very applicable to the rest of the world unless the research is based outside the US

@Paxxi yeah, that is the part I worry about too. It’s like when I was a kid (and poor) the newspapers would say that a good way to save money was to buy in bulk and I was: DUDE IF I HAD THE MONEY TO BUY IN BULK I WOULDN’T BE POOR

People often forget that they might not be “typical” or “representative”

@Paxxi I’m gonna become an economist and tell other countries that they should just get a sovereign wealth fund to tap into when they need some cash.

@Patricia @Paxxi I heard that advice, too, when I was a kid. Now that I'm an adult, I think the "buying in bulk" is a bit of a scam if you factor in the other costs besides the cost of the thing you are buying, like the cost of storing 100 rolls of toilet paper or 5 bottles of shampoo where you live. That could be literally the cost of having a big enough living space to store the bulk items. I think it could also be the psychological cost of having to live alongside piles of bulk you possess but haven't consumed.

Also, it just occurred to me that if excess inventory (that is, buying in bulk) is wasteful for businesses, why is excess inventory not wasteful for people? 🤷

(side explanation: excess inventory is often seen as wasteful in business because products in a warehouse cost money to store, degrade in quality over time, and aren't making any money if they aren't being sold)

@Paxxi @Patricia Trade balances are fun. Denmark chose a particular construction for a bridge so we could buy the steel from the UK and reduce their deficit. They were buying that much bacon and butter from Denmark.
Edit: around 1930.

https://ing.dk/artikel/dansk-bacon-skyld-i-storstroemsbroens-problemer

Dansk bacon skyld i Storstrømsbroens problemer | Ingeniøren

Frygten for, at England ville lægge straftold på den enorme danske eksport af landbrugsprodukter, fik i 1930'erne DSB til at hyre briter til at projektere den nu revneramte Storstrømsbro.

Ingeniøren
@Paxxi @Patricia humorously, I read something a few years ago that concluded that the major factor keeping China and Germany as manufacturing powerhouses was that their currencies *were* deflated, so their goods were cheap for other countries to import! China intentionally keeps the Yuan low, Germany benefits from the weaker economies in the EU (e.g. Greece) pulling down the Euro.
@tedmielczarek @Patricia I'm guessing that's not really true anymore with the Euro being slightly above the US dollar. Maybe before the Euro or early on?
@Paxxi @tedmielczarek I haven’t looked up any numbers but I believe Keen talked about it on one of the podcast episodes as a current state, so not that long ago at least.
@tedmielczarek I suspect there are similar arguments to be made with the US dollar and California and New York vs Louisiana and such... cc @Paxxi @Patricia
@danlyke @tedmielczarek @Paxxi I don’t think so… mostly because the whole world seems to prop up the USD. And that isn’t the case for the Euro. So the USD doesn’t seem to me to behave like a currency… and more like gold (in the gold standard times) tbh
@Patricia
New audiobook idea: "Steve Keen read by Patricia Aas" 😁
@joelving
@ami @joelving oh no. Patricia Yells At Books, but now as a podcast
@Patricia @ami @joelving
Or just "Yelling at Books - the podcast". That way you can have guest yellers 😆
@Patricia it’s not there yet. Let us know when we can subscribe :-)