Jennifer 濮
Carmen GonzalezAlbuquerque, NM, has become the largest U.S. city to permanently make public transportation free for everyone. The city found that fares didn’t cover the administrative fees, so they actually save money by making public transportation free.
Janik Ramírez@CRGonzalez The city will not be known only for Breaking Bad TV series...
Florida Ted@CRGonzalez Details at cabq.gov/transit/news/zero-far…
ts 🚇@CRGonzalez @chrisjrn c’mon #Boston what are we waiting for?!
In particular, what’s going on with the bus system that was supposed to be updated in ‘23?
Nicole@CRGonzalez @tsyum @chrisjrn good transit systems actually do recoup serious money from transit fares - to remove fares in those cases would result either in cut service or additional taxes (that would probably be better spent on additional service)
for example, King County Metro (Seattle) covers 25-30% of its operating expenses with fares; that would mean making fares free would result in a cut to service of a quarter to a third
Christopher Neugebauer@streganil
Saying a system raised 30% of its costs with fares is not quite the winning argument you think it is.
@CRGonzalez @tsyum
Saying a system raised 30% of its costs with fares is not quite the winning argument you think it is.
@CRGonzalez @tsyum
@chrisjrn gonna be honest, I have zero idea what your point is. running a system costs money, and a lot of that money comes from fares in systems with a lot of ridership
Martyn Welch@streganil @chrisjrn my guess would be that a good chunk of the cost involved in running a transport system is down to charging fares and protecting against non payment (payment systems, barriers, staff to check tickets, etc). Most if not all of that can be cut out if no fares are charged. What if the cost of doing that is greater than what you recoup from fares?
Garrett Wollman
Chris H #ChoirsForClimate@streganil if 35% of its expenses are related to collecting and enforcing fares, and only 30% of its income is from the fares, then removing fares makes economic sense.
One small "downside": some people may use it who didn't use it when it wasn't free, to get to places they need or want to go - and that's fine too, it means they're not driving, which saves money on road maintenance and public health. It doesn't cost any more unless they all decide to travel at peak times and need more buses.
@hutchingsmusic ... right, if that were the case, then making fares free would in fact make sense, but that isn't the case for systems like KCMetro (it _is_ the case for systems like ABQ, so those systems should probably go fare free)
PaulDavisTheFirst@hutchingsmusic @streganil excellently explained, but one minor proviso. I can't remember the exact multiplier, but I recall that because of their weight/size, buses are actually much harder on roads than cars, possibly by a factor of 10 or more. If that number is right, nobody should expect savings on road maintenance unless a given bus gets 10 cars off the road, which might be tall order.
[EDIT: OTOH, buses limit the damage to their specific routes]
@PaulDavisTheFirst @streganil yeah, main roads are usually built to cope with buses, and they drive carefully. They weigh more but they also have more, and bigger, wheels. As a result the pressure and wear on the road is a bit higher, but not 900% higher.
@PaulDavisTheFirst @streganil also the bus was there already. Any cars that it takes off the road are a bonus. The extra weight of a few passengers on a bus that's already on the road is basically a rounding error.
@hutchingsmusic @streganil when I lived in Seattle in the early 90s, the city was replacing the asphalt at every bus stop with concrete, because the accel/decel of the bus would literally warp the asphalt into waves. I've been back since, and that fix seems to have worked.
Quite a few places don't need the big buses, either, which will also help.
Andrew Bartlett@chrisjrn @streganil @CRGonzalez @tsyum It is a pretty solid number, much lower and fare free makes more sense, King Country says it costs 10% to enforce, and the interesting arrangement with large businesses for 50% of costs might be hard to keep if free at point of use.
https://kingcounty.gov/~/media/depts/metro/about/budget/king-county-metro-fares-and-revenue.pdf
Greater Wellington where I live and where public transport is strongly used across all income bands budgets for 33% farebox recovery currently.
@CRGonzalez @chrisjrn @tsyum MBTA has a farebox recovery ratio of 45%.
are you willing to cut service by nearly a half in order to remove fares?
Matthew Miller@streganil @CRGonzalez @chrisjrn @tsyum
Revenue for fares for 2024 is projected to be $418 million. Sales tax covers $1463 million.
We also have over $500 million in debt service annually. Spend the $935 million on some of that instead of a whole new fare collection system, and pay for the rest by reverting the regressive portions of the recent tax cuts.
(This includes commuter rail, by the way.)
Jeff Byrnes@streganil @CRGonzalez @tsyum @chrisjrn yep. The MBTA spends ~$50M to collect ~$150M in fares, so it’s a net win.
It’s great when a transit system can sensibly be free, but before we go making it free, we should listen to low income riders & improve service. This consistently ranks way higher than free or even reduced fares when we ask people.
Darwin Woodka@darwinwoodka @streganil @CRGonzalez @tsyum @chrisjrn sometimes we do, but not enough even when we toll roads.
But again: we should listen to riders, including low-income riders, & experts who, when asked, tell us that better, faster, reliable service is far & away more important than removing fares.
We shouldn’t be so arrogant as to think we know best for others, esp. when they’re so clear about what they want most.
@jeffbyrnes @streganil @CRGonzalez @tsyum @chrisjrn Just trying to point out that the only socialism Americans approve of is for cars, which they think should always have free roads and parking lots.
@darwinwoodka @streganil @CRGonzalez @tsyum @chrisjrn yep! I’m with you.
We should absolutely stop subsidizing car use AND charge for road use AND charge properly for parking.
@darwinwoodka @jeffbyrnes I think all of the people arguing that going fare free doesn't necessarily make sense for a lot of places are transit riders - I certainly am, my wife has a car but I walk and bus everywhere. I'm fully on board with charging car drivers more!
acm@streganil but what % of its expenses involve policing fares?
Ivey Janette McClelland@tsyum @CRGonzalez @chrisjrn I'm still waiting for LA Metro,Santa Monica Big Blue Bus and SF Muni to follow in ABQ Ride's footsteps and eliminate fares on buses and trains. I grew up riding those three systems,and now use Albuquerque's bus system.
Kagan MacTane (he/him)@CRGonzalez I wish we'd do this in NYC. We could save the ~$150 million we spent on paying police to catch people who committed ~$100,000 worth of fare evasion last year.
Veada@CRGonzalez They tried that here in Miami-Dade for a month and a half, and it was terrible for riders.
Alexandre Morin@CRGonzalez oh no, socialism! Hide your children! Run! Call 911!
McSpadden@CRGonzalez wow - incredible! Is there somewhere one could read about the economics of it?
Karl Auerbach@CRGonzalez I have heard that our county (Santa Cruz, California) is planning on extending its present zero-fare for students so that it will be zero-fare for everyone.
Trammell Hudson@CRGonzalez I can't wait to ride the Route 66 bus to the Frontier for a green chile breakfast burrito.
@th @CRGonzalez Just be careful. The 66 Central bus and the 766/777 ART buses are notorious for bad behavior. I ride them every day.
Bob JonkmanIn violation of good #Fediquette, Imma just tag this thread with #ZeroFareTransit and #FareFreeTransit.
LAF and LOVE@CRGonzalez I guess the numbers “woke” them up.
Jes Moved to @@CRGonzalez my friend lives there, and the people who live in albe are fucking wild.
it's just common rules there that you run the yellow and red light for the first milisecond and it's just commonly agreed that you need to wait at least 2 seconds before crossing the road
it's just common rules there that you run the yellow and red light for the first milisecond and it's just commonly agreed that you need to wait at least 2 seconds before crossing the road
Fopsie@CRGonzalez It's wild how much administrative overhead costs for some public services
What a W
What a W
@CRGonzalez it's a different kind of bus system, but worth noting that in north-central New Mexico (not ABQ) we also have free fares for the rural "blue bus" system. These are "long distance" routes (up to 50-70 miles) that connect various communities here. Service is not exactly frequent (though this varies depending on the route), and there's often no replacement drivers for a given bus on the schedule. Still a lifeline for some folks out here. And bike racks!
Allan Chow@CRGonzalez Operation Expense to collect revenue is real!
Neel Chauhan@CRGonzalez Meanwhile NYC spent $150M just to catch $100000 in fare evasion.
Andromeda Yelton@CRGonzalez Reminiscent of the fine-free movement in libraries; some libraries find the admin costs are more than the revenue. (And of course in all cases fines undermine the mission of public libraries.)
Luna 
@CRGonzalez Jesse. We need to get on the bus Jesse. They're free Jesse
✨ Alshra ✨ 
@CRGonzalez That's a great start! Hopefully other cities follow suit!
Endless Bookshelf@CRGonzalez @maxfenton imagine the cost savings in NYC if the police de-escalated fare evasion & were there to serve & help people
Max Fenton (defunct)@EndlessBookshelf Instead of… proposing a 15 second delay on emergency exit doors? https://gothamist.com/news/emergency-gates-will-soon-take-15-seconds-to-open-at-3-nyc-subway-stations
Simon Forman> In Gavin Newsom’s book Citizenville he talked about how, after becoming SF mayor, he discovered that fare collection cost as much as the revenue generated from fares. He started the process of making the bus free but was told by so many advisors that the busses would become “dumpsters on wheels,” from a combination of homeless people using them for shelter and people not respecting services that are free, that the plan was scrapped.
👀 Boston, where we are spending One Billion Dollars on a new fare collection system for the MBTA...
LPS
ch0ccyra1n is leaving fedi soon@CRGonzalez Saul Goodman can finally take public transit for free instead of paying for parking at the courthouse :p
Wildeng@CRGonzalez I will never understand why a bus service should be used by poor people only. In Europe everyone uses the bus if it’s a reliable and affordable service.
Thomas Staudinger@CRGonzalez Someone should dedicate a >11 min song to the city.
Princess Unikitty@CRGonzalez
Have they tried the New York approach and also spent millions on police details?
Have they tried the New York approach and also spent millions on police details?