Mastodawn

Mick 🇨🇦Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard “When your opponent outnumbers you, maybe try to avoid fighting them.”

“It is important to make sure your troops aren’t sick and starving before they enter battle.”

“Weather! Terrain! These are things you should really pay attention to!”

I imagine the first versions, lost to time, included an illustration of a sword with a big red arrow highlighting the “sharp parts, be careful!”

Martijn Vos Dec 28, 2023

@mick @davidgerard

I remember when I first read it, I expected some deep wisdom on strategy, but 90% is either really obvious stuff, very vague, or gibberish.

My version has commentary from a bunch of Chinese people, and I swear that half of the time, at least one of them didn't get the obvious point and attached some really weird interpretation to the original.

Nathaniel Swigger Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard I still remember reading this in college after hearing about it for years and just thinking, “wait, that’s it?” Easily the biggest disappointment I’ve ever had with any book.

@nswigger @davidgerard
Similar - I kept looking for deeper meaning & being young, didn't give proper weight to the bureaucratic context. & I think there's a lot to learn from it *in that context* - it's almost more important as a meta-text.

FoolishOwl Dec 28, 2023

@FeralRobots @nswigger @davidgerard I liked the bit about how you must counter the direct attack but you win with the flanking attack, and that really what makes one the direct attack and the other the flanking attack is which one is expected and which isn't.

But, that's it. And it's probably pretty obvious to anyone who's at least played a war game.

Nathaniel Swigger Dec 28, 2023

@foolishowl @FeralRobots @davidgerard I found it all obvious or esoteric. “Move not unless you see an advantage.” Really, no shit? So I shouldn’t just do stuff no matter what? Thanks!

It’s an interesting historical document, but it’s clearly written as advice for people who already have all the advantages.

@nswigger
I wouldn't go that far. There's a whole section about how much of a disadvantage one puts onesself into by attacking, & how that gets compounded with distance - where the lesson is "...SO YOU NEED TO PLAN FOR THAT." It's all about how to win with what you've got. Yes, 'don't fight if you can avoid it', but also 'if you can't avoid fighting, here's what you need to think about.'
@foolishowl @davidgerard

@nswigger
I remember hearing it compared to Clausewitz, & when I read them for content they're basically saying many of the same things. But Sun Tzu is slightly more abstract - or at least looks that way because it gets filtered through a lens of exoticism. That level of abstraction lends to it being more instructive for insurgents than (e.g.) Clausewitz.
@foolishowl @davidgerard

@nswigger
In some ways it reminds me of Strunk & White or King's _On Writing_, in that most of what they have to say is pretty straightforward & intuitive - but it's still hard to actually *execute* it well, & even then you don't always want to do it exactly as it's stated.
@foolishowl @davidgerard

@nswigger @foolishowl @FeralRobots @davidgerard

Billy Smith Dec 28, 2023

If you're in charge of an army, then you're already advantaged. :D

@nswigger @foolishowl @davidgerard

FeralRobots Dec 29, 2023

@BillySmith
Well, over people without an army.😉
It's all more complicated than popular reports usually make it. Folks often talk about, say, Finnish resistance to Russian invasion in ww2 (or Ukrainian in early days of the 2022 invasion) as though it was ad hoc but those efforts worked because, as you say, they had an army - i.e., they were organized. There was real discipline & theory behind the guerilla actions.

FoolishOwl Dec 28, 2023

@FeralRobots @nswigger @davidgerard Actually, come to think of it, I was reading a discussion of ancient Roman tactics, and part of it was that Roman legions would, in fact, overwhelm their opposition with their main assault by heavy infantry, so that bit's not a universal truth either.

@foolishowl
Hm. I can't think of a good example of straight on fight between a legion formation & a phalanx & I would think the phalanx would have an advantage there. Where legions smashed phalanxes, it was usually on rough ground where the legion had an advange. So I suppose if a phalanx were made to fight with poor footing or on uneven ground, a legion coming straight on could get inside their spear-wall where it would have an advantage.
@nswigger @davidgerard

@foolishowl
I read Myke Cole's book about that very subject but the details of specific battles aren't coming back to me. Short version though from what I recall is that legions were usually winning on maneuverability, mostly. (Though there were other factors, like training & standard equipment.)
@nswigger @davidgerard

https://acoup.blog/2023/11/24/collections-roman-infantry-tactics-why-the-pilum-and-not-a-spear/

FoolishOwl Dec 28, 2023

@FeralRobots @nswigger @davidgerard I was thinking most of this blog post.

Collections: Roman Infantry Tactics: Why the Pilum and not a Spear?

This week’s post is intended to answer a question which came up in response to the last post looking at the most common type of Mediterranean spear, which to put it simply is: what is up with…

A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry

FeralRobots Dec 29, 2023

@foolishowl
I feel like I've read that one before...I love that kind of article, it appeals to my archaeological mindset. Reminds me of the first time I read Lin White's _Medievel Technology & Social Change_. (Looking at 3 examples of small technologies - horse-collars, stirrups, & rotary power conversion [cranks] - & their wide-ranging impacts.)
@nswigger @davidgerard

Alexander Schmidt-Lebuhn Dec 28, 2023

@nswigger @davidgerard The Prince is about how it pays to have a plan for politics instead of relying on god handing you victory regardless of whatever nonsense you do. This is the same for war. There must have been a time when these were needed, I guess, but yes, if you grow up already understanding these things they are a bit underwhelming.

Aphrodite (recharging)Dec 28, 2023

i, um, i actually use it to help with deradicalization.

turned the weakness of my incompetence at fighting into the strength of nonviolence.

and since then, i’ve not just had no hostility directed at me irl.

and a gesture i use as a sign of respect also makes any who wish to harm me flee.

i just tip my hat to everyone, make eye contact, smile.

most like that. brightens their day. disarms.

the hostile panic because they know that i know their face.

Aphrodite (recharging)Dec 28, 2023

i, um, i actually use it to help with deradicalization.

turned the weakness of my incompetence at fighting into the strength of nonviolence.

and since then, i’ve not just had no hostility directed at me irl.

and a gesture i use as a sign of respect also makes any who wish to harm me flee.

i just tip my hat to everyone, make eye contact, smile.

most like that. brightens their day. disarms.

the hostile panic because they know that i know their face.

David Gerard Dec 28, 2023

@Aphrodite it's a fine book! but uh most of its present fan base

Everyday Freethought Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard @Aphrodite

I have often wondered if people in the military revere the book as much as the biz community seems to.

Aphrodite (recharging)Dec 29, 2023

@EFreethought @davidgerard

daoist military theory sought to achieve victory with the minimum cost, ideally without using violence at all.

like the incredulous idea that one who is utterly nonviolent towards all humans not only defeating a self-declared enemy but turning them to their side as an ally against that same enemy bound by nothing but mutual respect.

that was last month. ;)

MaxTheFox Dec 29, 2023

@EFreethought @davidgerard @Aphrodite It's apparently mandatory reading for officers in some armies. Probably more tradition than anything honestly.

@Aphrodite @davidgerard
I expect the old general would feel you got him.

tetris Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard "See this arrow? See how I can break it easily in half? Now imagine me breaking a thousand arrows. That's right. (skips pages, skips more pages). Don't unionize or I'll break you all!"

Scijones Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard honestly the whole genre of power manifestos reads like this.

@davidgerard
I like to remember that Sun Tzu had to audition for his job by training the Emperor's courtesans to march in formation & perform battle drills. (Implication being that he might be killed if he didn't get the job.)

that story has been used in things I've read to make the case that he's remembered because he was a good communicator (look, he taught the courtesans!), not a great general. IIRC he wasn't regarded a particularly brilliant general, by the standards of his time,

Rick Mycroft Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard War for Dummies, written for people who were made a general by scoring high on their civil service exams.

LAF and LOVE Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard oh dear. Now I must reread (after years and years) with new eyes?👀

Pēteris Krišjānis Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard if you have to justify your thoughts with quotes from single book, I suspect you are just lazy and ignorant.

The Doctor Dec 28, 2023

@peteriskrisjanis @davidgerard Too many, though, and you're the enemy because you look too well educated.

Steffan Ziegler Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard This is making me look at "The Prince" in a new light...

MaxTheFox Dec 29, 2023

@saint_monkey @davidgerard Macchiavelli is kinda misunderstood. The common perception of him is that he said a ruler should be feared rather than loved. He actually said that a ruler should be feared AND loved. Still iffy, but less mustache-twirling-villain-y, you know?

Chris R. Donnelly Dec 30, 2023

@saint_monkey @davidgerard

This tumblr post lives rent-free in my head:

https://www.tumblr.com/the-transfeminine-mystique/175956441876/scenario-jerry-seinfeld-writes-and-produces-a?source=share

neither speaking nor dissumulating, but signifying

Scenario. Jerry Seinfeld writes and produces a gritty war movie. It’s weird, given his earlier work, but not a bad movie. The script is pretty solid. Time passes, and Seinfeld dies. After his death i…

Tumblr

aethervision Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard If that had been printed on the cover, it would have saved me so much time.

Rachel Greenham Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard @lisamelton Machiavelli’s The Prince: basically the same for Not Immediately Fucking Up Being In Power; similarly targeting some nepo baby he wanted a job from IIRC.

@StrangeNoises @davidgerard @lisamelton

Whitmad Dec 30, 2023

I read The Prince as a warning to the rest of us about the kind of things people in power get up to.

Jade Smith Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard @lisamelton why screenshot this instead of boosting it? (asking in good-faith)

Justin Fitzsimmons Dec 28, 2023

@jade_smith it's from bluesky, which doesn't federate with fediverse

Jade Smith Dec 28, 2023

@smn ah, thank you!

Matt Dec 28, 2023

@jade_smith @davidgerard @lisamelton it’s from a different platform

David Gerard Dec 28, 2023

@jade_smith @lisamelton per the "bsky.social", it's from bluesky

Jade Smith Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard @lisamelton got it — thanks!

Doxin Dec 28, 2023

@jade_smith looks to be a post on bluesky. don't think they federate with mastodon.

Robert Brandt (dragoner)Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard Interesting footnote is the side he wrote it for, Wu, lost, and was conquered by their enemy, Yue.

YurkshireLad Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard I always thought "The Art of War" should have been a painting. It's in the name, no? 😀

elle Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard lol my 12 yo begged for this for Christmas one year, read a few pages and said, "This seems like pretty basic warring tbh"

Kinene⭐🐻Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard Sticking with Machiavelli. He has some good gems amidst the "historical" examples.

arceuthobium Dec 28, 2023

@c_merriweather @davidgerard he wrote “the pope is just another feudal baron,” and for that he’s remembered as history’s greatest monster. Nothing else he wrote was particularly controversial for the time.

Kinene⭐🐻Dec 28, 2023

@theothersimo @davidgerard His take on mercenaries is on the mark.

Darwin Woodka Dec 28, 2023

Sun Tzu's mom: "Stop hitting your brother!"

Jeremy List Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard to be fair: most CEOs repeatedly and continually make mistakes that Sun Tsu specifically warns against, even after reading that book.

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦Dec 28, 2023

@jeremy_list they do not read it. they have it summarised.
@davidgerard

Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle Dec 28, 2023

https://aeon.co/ideas/tidying-up-is-not-joyful-but-another-misuse-of-eastern-ideas

"As a scholar of East Asian philosophies, one pattern in the Kondo mania is all too familiar: the susceptibility of Americans to plain good sense if it can but be infused with a quasi-mystical ‘oriental’ aura. Kondo is, in several ways, a Mr Miyagi for the anxious, late-capitalist, consumerist age."

Tidying up is not joyful but another misuse of Eastern ideas | Aeon Ideas

Folding T-shirts is not a path toward contentment: Tidying Up with Marie Kondo is only the latest misuse of Eastern ideas

Frank Patz-Brockmann Dec 28, 2023

@davidgerard OTOH, not immediately fucking up anything is not a small accomplishment.

MaxTheFox Dec 29, 2023

@davidgerard tbh at the time, a lot of Chinese rulers and generals were indeed entitled and extremely superstitious. It was fair for its day.