š š š§@jpaskaruk The "Anarchist" that you talked to was wrong and horribly misinformed. Anarchism is the absence of hierarchy and authority, NOT the absence of order and structure. Order and structure are necessary for any society to function. Without order and structure, without all of society being united under a shared ideological platform, an Anarchist society would become weak and be taken over by authoritarianism.
Neoratā¢ Ad #FuckYourZionistEthnostate@Radical_EgoCom To be fair, since Anarchism is very individualist there is no unified "anarchist viewpoint". He wasn't misinformed or wrong, just didn't go with the usual idea of anarchist society. @jpaskaruk
@jpaskaruk I mean, we have seen and still can see anarchist ideals in practice. Zapatists, Zomians, Kurdish revolutionaries to name a few. The hierarchical, cutthroat order we devolved into is the primary reason we're so barbaric. Because the people allowed to grab power will never give it back. For me, anarchism is the absence of said power and system allowing power hungry megalomaniacs to enforce their will upon others.
@Radical_EgoCom
@Radical_EgoCom
Adrian Riskin 
@jpaskaruk @szczur @Radical_EgoCom Stories of a past that was not nasty and brutish are literal archeology. The "nasty and brutish" story was made up of whole cloth by Thomas Hobbes to support the emerging world dominance of capital. It's not based on anything factual, it's a religious dogma of the capitalist world-system. David Graeber and David Wengrow make this argument in painstaking detail in The Dawn of Everything.
@jpaskaruk @szczur @Radical_EgoCom It's worth reading, and not hard for non-experts, which is a rare quality in science writing. Enjoy!
But what does the KR have to do with anything? Obviously without violent hierarchy there's no KR. Do you think capitalism has any fewer victims? They're just hidden away better instead of having their skulls on display.
HeavenlyPossum@szczur @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk @Radical_EgoCom
Identifying social strategies that people have developedāand critically, implemented in ways that allow us to know that they work empiricallyāto resist hierarchy, authority, and violent self-aggrandizers should not be understood as āanti-technology.ā
Itās a fallacy to presume that because something useful existed in the past, we must somehow āreturn to the pastā in order to make use of it.
@HeavenlyPossum While I agree with you I find it very important to point out that anarchism is not an utopia people generally call it. Itās been there all the time. @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk @Radical_EgoCom
@szczur @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk @Radical_EgoCom
Anarchism certainly isnāt a āeutopiaā in the sense of a perfectly good place, but itās also not a āutopiaā in the sense of an unobtainable ideal. A lot of people get the impression that anarchists believe anarchism is a panacea for all our social ills, but most anarchist thought is about *doing the hard work* to create and sustain anarchism while addressing conflict in the absence of coercive authority.
Belakor@HeavenlyPossum @szczur @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk @Radical_EgoCom I appreciate this description. It's probably the best one I've ever seen. My interactions with self described Anarchists usually involved a lot of hand waving on their part.
I do still worry that even with such a system in place some person(s) will attempt to exert authority. While I think most people could easily work within such a system, the narcissists will still plague our world. Maybe I'm just too cynical.
@nurglerider @HeavenlyPossum @szczur @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk
In an Anarcho-Communist society, social structures would aim to deter the concentration of authority through horizontal organization, fostering empathy and employing community-based therapies to address narcissistic tendencies. Deviations from egalitarian principles would be collectively managed through open dialogue and consensus-based decision-making, without the use of hierarchical enforcement.
In an Anarcho-Communist society, social structures would aim to deter the concentration of authority through horizontal organization, fostering empathy and employing community-based therapies to address narcissistic tendencies. Deviations from egalitarian principles would be collectively managed through open dialogue and consensus-based decision-making, without the use of hierarchical enforcement.
Catherine is not complacent@Radical_EgoCom @nurglerider @HeavenlyPossum @szczur @AdrianRiskin @jpaskaruk you know when you say it like that it makes me think of reeducation camps. It doesnāt appear to foster individuality at all.
@CatDragon
Anarcho-Communism obviously advocates for individualism, but there is toxic individualism, the kind of selfish, solipsistic individualism that dominates the modern world, that can't be tolerated. A shared ideological unity is necessary for not only an Anarchist revolution to be successful, but for an Anarchist society to be able to properly function and defend against all of its enemies.
Anarcho-Communism obviously advocates for individualism, but there is toxic individualism, the kind of selfish, solipsistic individualism that dominates the modern world, that can't be tolerated. A shared ideological unity is necessary for not only an Anarchist revolution to be successful, but for an Anarchist society to be able to properly function and defend against all of its enemies.
@Radical_EgoCom no. Because eventually regardless of best intentions at the onset it will become oppressive.
@CatDragon How do you know that it will become oppressive? Because you're speaking in objectives, as if there's no chance an Anarchist society could ever happen, which I highly doubt you could have such knowledge.
@Radical_EgoCom because people tend to want to hold power, even if itās just over decision making. Iām wondering what sort of childhood education youāre thinking should be in place. When would it be decided someone needed intervention? 20? 12? 2? How would this be decided? Testing? Who exactly would be in charge of how children are raised?
@CatDragon
In an Anarchist-Communist society, ideological and political education would be decentralized and community-driven. Education would focus on fostering principles of mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, and collective decision-making. Everyone in the community would have the opportunity to participate, as education would aim for inclusivity rather than hierarchical structures. The goal would be to empower individuals and promoting a shared understanding of anarchist-communist principles
In an Anarchist-Communist society, ideological and political education would be decentralized and community-driven. Education would focus on fostering principles of mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, and collective decision-making. Everyone in the community would have the opportunity to participate, as education would aim for inclusivity rather than hierarchical structures. The goal would be to empower individuals and promoting a shared understanding of anarchist-communist principles
Solipsistic individualism really only seems like a problem insofar as a) some people are institutionally empowered to act on others on the basis of that individualism and b) some people are institutionally constrained from defending themselves against it.
Without those institutions, it would be much harder for anyone to behave that way without fear of consequences, and I suspect weād see a lot less of it as a result.
@HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon
There would definitely be a lot less greediness and selfishness in an Anarchist society, but it would still exist, if not in small amounts, and doing nothing about it will only give it opportunities to grow.
There would definitely be a lot less greediness and selfishness in an Anarchist society, but it would still exist, if not in small amounts, and doing nothing about it will only give it opportunities to grow.
Iām not sure why ādoing nothingā would lead to the growth of solipsist individualism. And we have a great many tools for influencing the behavior of other people beyond ideological education. Iād rather rely on trusty tools like ostracism and shame and conviviality than trust to ideological education (which the individualists could just as easily try to do to you).
@HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon
In an anarchist society, ideological education is crucial to prevent hierarchical structures and maintain decentralization. It empowers individuals to participate actively in decision-making, fostering shared responsibility and voluntary cooperation. This education also guards against the emergence of authoritarian ideologies within the anarchist framework.
In an anarchist society, ideological education is crucial to prevent hierarchical structures and maintain decentralization. It empowers individuals to participate actively in decision-making, fostering shared responsibility and voluntary cooperation. This education also guards against the emergence of authoritarian ideologies within the anarchist framework.
hapbt@hapbt @HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon It's not. An organized society built on free association with no hierarchy and ideological unity isn't the same as the hierarchical, compulsive institutions of governments.
Kevin Karhan 
@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @[email protected] @CatDragon
You sooner or later get that inevitably.
Regardless if Democracy, Syndicatism, Tribalism or Warlordism, you'll end up with structures of power and the need to enforce rules against the will of those that violate them.
And what are you gonna do then?
Obviously, you can't just banish people for very good reasons!
And even if you can you'd just offset the problem instead of fixing it!
@kkarhan @hapbt @CatDragon
In an Anarcho-Communist society, adherence to rules would ideally be based on voluntary cooperation and a shared commitment to communal well-being. Social norms, mutual aid, and decentralized decision-making processes could help guide behavior without relying on hierarchical authority. Peer pressure, education, and community dialogue might be employed to address non-compliance, emphasizing the importance of collective responsibility and the benefits of cooperation.
In an Anarcho-Communist society, adherence to rules would ideally be based on voluntary cooperation and a shared commitment to communal well-being. Social norms, mutual aid, and decentralized decision-making processes could help guide behavior without relying on hierarchical authority. Peer pressure, education, and community dialogue might be employed to address non-compliance, emphasizing the importance of collective responsibility and the benefits of cooperation.
@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @CatDragon
Again: Ideally we'd all have non-violent and supportive and cooperating individuals, but sadly that's not always the case.
And at some point #Accountability and #Consequences must kick in, because otherwise this would be an open invitation for the few that are violent aggressors to murder and pilferage...
@kkarhan @hapbt @CatDragon
In a truly decentralized society, collective decision-making and community solidarity can address issues without resorting to punitive measures or hierarchical structures. Punishment and punitive measures only perpetuate the oppression that leads to crime, not eradicates it.
In a truly decentralized society, collective decision-making and community solidarity can address issues without resorting to punitive measures or hierarchical structures. Punishment and punitive measures only perpetuate the oppression that leads to crime, not eradicates it.
@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @CatDragon
Again: I don't deny your honest optimism and I do agree that abolishing capitalism and thus the incentive to own stuff would help, but sadly you have to account for people that don't want to follow the most basic rules and laws...
So what are you gonna do about those?
@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @CatDragon
Spoiler: You'll inevitably create executive, legislative and judical power structures, no matter if you have public offices or anonymous plebs fill the ranks and positions...
What you actually want is #accountability and #consequences as well as #transparency and deliberate decentralization as per "checks and balances"...
Because at a certain point, someone has to make decisions and also at some point accountability and consequences need to happen.
@kkarhan @hapbt @CatDragon I've already accounted for everyone, including people who are the most averse to following rules. If someone is so horrible then they'll likely be kicked out of the community, but I don't believe that will need to be resorted to that much since the tactics that I listed above are efficacy enough to deal with most people.
Free Use Bunny@kkarhan @Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @CatDragon
I'm part of a union organized on strong anarchist principles.
I sat on a disciplinary hearing for a fellow worker who had assaulted another fellow member. The offending member was given fair and due process based on rules agreed on and adopted by our branch. He refused reconciliation and was therefore expelled for a minimum period of several years.
I no longer debate if anarchism has accountability and consequences or not because it clearly does. Anarchism doesn't ā and has never meant ā no rules and no hierarchy. It means rules dictate that hierarchies scale according to need and are mandated to collapse and recede when the need expires.
This is a fundamental principle to many of the successful, worker-organized co-ops, social clubs, sports teams, and communities around the world, not to mention some of the structure of many open-source software projects.
I'm so tired of arguments that depend on indicting humanity as innately power hungry when the majority of us are not. And it doesn't mean no consequences for those who are. It just means those consequences are decided on directly by your peers instead of cops.
Because I no longer debate the efficacy or structure of anarchism with its opponents, I tell them to actively and intentionally join a local anarchist mutual aid group or union to see it work in action and participate.
If you like it: stay, contribute, and learn. If not: leave and continue going how you've always gone. If you don't want to try it, then the least you can do is leave it alone.
@JenWithGravy @kkarhan @hapbt @CatDragon
TL;DR The essence of Anarchism is not the absence of rules and hierarchy, but a flexible structure based on need, observed in successful worker co-ops, social clubs, and open-source projects worldwide. Arguments portraying humanity as inherently power-hungry are false, and we should have direct peer-driven consequences within Anarchism. Skeptics should join local Anarchist groups to witness and understand the system in action.
TL;DR The essence of Anarchism is not the absence of rules and hierarchy, but a flexible structure based on need, observed in successful worker co-ops, social clubs, and open-source projects worldwide. Arguments portraying humanity as inherently power-hungry are false, and we should have direct peer-driven consequences within Anarchism. Skeptics should join local Anarchist groups to witness and understand the system in action.
@Radical_EgoCom @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon
Then you have #Syndicatism and #Cooperativism, not #Anarchism!
Again: The most crucial problems are:
1. "How do we get there?"
2. "How do we prevent power-hungry assholes from destroying it?"
And so far noone has provided a solution for neother of those important problems.
As long as these remain "#NotInventedHere" and/or "#CantFix" and/or "#WontFix" that utopia won't materialize!
@kkarhan @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon
THREAD š§µ1/ Creating an Anarcho-Communist society requires grassroots organizing to establish decentralized decision-making structures, communal ownership of resources, and the dismantling of hierarchical institutions. Emphasizing education on cooperative principles and fostering a culture of mutual aid can help build a foundation for collective governance.
THREAD š§µ1/ Creating an Anarcho-Communist society requires grassroots organizing to establish decentralized decision-making structures, communal ownership of resources, and the dismantling of hierarchical institutions. Emphasizing education on cooperative principles and fostering a culture of mutual aid can help build a foundation for collective governance.
@kkarhan @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon
2/ Simultaneously, implementing transparent systems, such as direct democracy, ensures broad participation and prevents power from concentrating in the hands of a few.
To safeguard against power-hungry individuals, ongoing vigilance and education are crucial. Establishing checks and balances within the community, coupled with regular evaluations of leadership roles, helps prevent the rise of authoritarian figures.
@kkarhan @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon
END/ Promoting a culture of accountability, where actions are scrutinized against communal values, can further fortify the resilience of an Anarcho-Communist society against internal threats.
END/ Promoting a culture of accountability, where actions are scrutinized against communal values, can further fortify the resilience of an Anarcho-Communist society against internal threats.
@Radical_EgoCom @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon that doesn't amswer the question entirely...
It's not like clear steps but just vague buzzwording...
@kkarhan @JenWithGravy @hapbt @CatDragon If you're wanting me to literally lay a step-by-step plan for how an Anarchist-Communist society would be created in every single detail then that's obviously not going to happen because I can't see into the future. All I, or anyone, can do today is provide the bare minimum guiding steps for creating Anarchism, steps that are ment to be built upon by people once they actually start making Anarchism a reality.
Fabio G.@kkarhan Anarchism is not opposed to power structures in a broad sense, just to
hierarchical power structures.
merdaverse@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon How is ideological unity viable in real life? Talk to any group of 5 people and you will hear 5 different opinions on how society should be organized. That is if you're fortunate and they don't kill each other. The point of governments is that they guarantee that these different views can coexist at the price of a small compromise from each. Variance from the norm is how evolution works. That makes unity impossible, undesirable even.
@merdaverse @hapbt @HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon
The notion of governments enforcing compromises between differing opinions is itself a form of coercion. A decentralized, voluntary cooperation among individuals and communities, with a bottom-up approach where collective decisions arise organically, without the need for a centralized authority, would be much better than a government. True unity can be achieved through consensus and direct democratic processes.
The notion of governments enforcing compromises between differing opinions is itself a form of coercion. A decentralized, voluntary cooperation among individuals and communities, with a bottom-up approach where collective decisions arise organically, without the need for a centralized authority, would be much better than a government. True unity can be achieved through consensus and direct democratic processes.
@Radical_EgoCom @hapbt @HeavenlyPossum @CatDragon "A decentralized, voluntary, bottom up, collective..." and all that other anarchist claptrap is exactly what led the lynchings in the USA in the last 2 centuries, and what leads far right movements today. Repeating the same utopian concepts lots of times without a plan does not make them automagically happen.
@Radical_EgoCom @merdaverse @hapbt @CatDragon
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what
@CatDragon @hapbt @Radical_EgoCom
Sorry, that was in reply to a bonkers comment by Merdaverse, whom you seem to have already blocked.
SuperTwaddle@HeavenlyPossum @Radical_EgoCom @[email protected] @hapbt @CatDragon
"anarchist claptrap is exactly what led the lynchings in the USA in the last 2 centuries"
You certainly do get some interesting new viewpoints on here occasionally
š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š¬ š
@Radical_EgoCom @merdaverse @hapbt @HeavenlyPossum youād probably enjoy the town structure and meetings in the little place where I live in Maine. Three select persons, the one in place longest replaced every year. No one stays for more than the normal three years. Town meetings monthly and a large annual town meeting where every single line item in the budget is discussed, argued over, and voted on.
@Radical_EgoCom Here's why i don't trust this idea of āideological educationā.
I wasn't provided āideological educationā. I developed a worldview based on voluntary cooperation because i went looking for sourcesāor less heroically, stumbled upon them while looking at something else.
If i was provided any āideological educationā it was the capitalist kind.
Your experience is likely similar.
If we didn't need āideological educationā to turn up anarchists, why does anyone else?
@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum
Personal exploration led you to anarchism, but many individuals may not have the same exposure or opportunity for self-discovery. Ideological education can serve as a tool to introduce diverse perspectives, helping people develop critical thinking and make informed choices about societal structures. It's about ensuring that everyone has access to a variety of ideas, not imposing a single ideology.
Personal exploration led you to anarchism, but many individuals may not have the same exposure or opportunity for self-discovery. Ideological education can serve as a tool to introduce diverse perspectives, helping people develop critical thinking and make informed choices about societal structures. It's about ensuring that everyone has access to a variety of ideas, not imposing a single ideology.
@Radical_EgoCom Sure, but here you're arguing is that ā
āideological educationā (which i take to mean broad exposure and immersion to critical sources and views) is helpful.
What you said before is that āideological educationā is necessary (ācrucialā is the word you used).
Those are two different claims.
@magitweeter @HeavenlyPossum
I believe ideological education is necessary precisely because of its helpfulness. Without it people will be too disunited to have a revolution, let alone run an Anarchist society.
I believe ideological education is necessary precisely because of its helpfulness. Without it people will be too disunited to have a revolution, let alone run an Anarchist society.
@Radical_EgoCom I'm unconvinced, but that's alright. Diversity of tactics, and all.
floydgumpI like hearing a diversity of ideas even ones I disagree with.That's how you grow and evolve intellectually.Problem is some think they can buy ideas and free thought to force people into their destructive ideology.
@gumpfloyd Hello! Deleting the mentions causes no one to get a notification for your response. That way it's a bit like you're talking to yourself.
It's likely that you're aware of this, also likely that you intend it. But given the nonzero chance that you're unaware, i thought i'd let you know.
@magitweeter Probably accident new here so yeah I'm probably unaware to it.
@magitweeter Checked settings so not sure what you referring to. Say to me whatever you wish I was on Twatter so yeah I got thick skin.
@gumpfloyd Let me get to a machine that can take convenient screenshots and i'll show you what i mean. No, it's not related to blocking.
@magitweeter Unfortunately being poor one can not afford a better machine. The only thing I deleted was my own.
@gumpfloyd Here, let me show you. I've attached two screenshots.
For the first one: see how this message contains ā@magitweeterā? Because i'm mentioned in it, that message shows up in my notifications.
For the second one: notice how it contains no mentions. Unlike the other one, it doesn't show up in my notifications, or anyone else's, even though it's a reply to a previous message.
@magitweeter I'll keep messing with settings to see if I can figure it out but so far I don't see anything.
@magitweeter Oh I know just occurred sometimes when sometimes when their names are long cuz I don't see real well I delete the names my bad.
