Mastodawn

@i0null I've spent way too long pondering this quote lately.

I think the problem sits in the premise. Is it true that "a computer can never be held accountable"?
And in that, what is "a computer", is it just the physical metal and silicium, the entire product, the entity renting it out, the entity using it, or owning it?
And is it truly "never"? As in: is this something dictated by fysics or the Order of Things, or can this change?

Like I said. Way too long.

@berkes I sympathise with the epistemological uncertainty.

Kenneth Dec 10, 2023

@i0null Smells like set theory to me. Or a really complicated flow chart. @berkes

Natanael ⚠️Dec 10, 2023

@berkes @i0null If the computer misbehaves you can't punish it. And most of the time it misbehaves because somebody designed a component (or many) wrong.

Therefore you shouldn't rely on the computer to make decisions that can't be reversed or appealed by humans, because there needs to be a human higher in the hierarchy than the computer who can fix things.

@Natanael_L @i0null seriously: why can you not "punish the computer"?

We can punish a car manufacturer when they forgot to put in brakes. We can punish an app developer when their app is harming us. We can punish a cloud provider when they leak data. And so on.

I feel it's far more involved than you state. What if I don't use "a computer" but instead a lambda on AWS? It would make sense the software developer is responsible when it makes a Wong decision?

Natanael ⚠️Dec 10, 2023

@berkes @i0null you have the whole chain from collecting requirements to implementation to the operator of the system, the responsibility lies with whoever has contributed to the misbehavior (or opted not to fix it).

Whoever made the decision that software or hardware which they should have known wasn't ready should be put into production.

@Natanael_L @i0null In that case "the computer" being a system, can be held responsible, no?

Natanael ⚠️Dec 10, 2023

@berkes @i0null what will you do to hold it responsible? Yell at it? Power it down? Reprogram it?

And who will do so? And if you look closer, isn't whoever human that will enact this the actual person responsible for the machine's operation as they can override it?

mystixa 🎶🎧Dec 11, 2023

@berkes @Natanael_L @i0null One can't 'punish a car manufacturer'.. one can add to the expense of manufacturing but that is just another of many that businesses deal with in every transaction.

llywrch Dec 10, 2023

@Natanael_L @berkes @i0null Only humans higher in the hierarchy refuse to oversee the decisions algorithms make.

See almost any ban appeal in social media. Or complaint about bank handling charges.

@llywrch @Natanael_L @i0null Certainly. But a counterexample were software developers and managers that went to jail in the VW scandal. So there is accountability for those writing software. Not much and not always. But not "never" either.

Haelus Novak Dec 10, 2023

@berkes @i0null what of when/if AI is indistinguishable from humanity, even with so-called emotional response and distress? Is accountability linked to pain and consequence in that way? Maybe true for fax machines lol.

Jargoggles Dec 10, 2023

@berkes @i0null
I like to think of it in more practical terms - a computer *shields* people from responsibility; it makes things fuzzier, harder to trace the decision back to whoever should be held accountable.

We've already seen this in action for a while now: "the algorithm messed up," "the algorithm did something unexpected," "the algorithm shouldn't have done that," the algorithm this, the algorithm that. It's a thought-terminating cliche and, unfortunately, it generally works on people.

Glyph Dec 10, 2023

@i0null please include sourcing if you can. Unfortunately it’s a little vague in this case, as the original was destroyed in a flood: https://twitter.com/bumblebike/status/1468346709994582020

bumblebike (@bumblebike) on X

@SwiftOnSecurity @Jonimus Unfortunately destroyed by flood in 2019 with most of my things. Inquired at the retirees club zoom last week, but there’s almost no one the right age left. Not sure where else to ask.

X (formerly Twitter)

@glyph surely the source was the original slide?

Glyph Dec 10, 2023

@i0null the source would be “twitter user bumblebike in 2017”. We only know this slide exists because he shared the picture, and we only think it’s an IBM presentation slide because of his claim.

Matt Hodgkinson Dec 10, 2023

@glyph @i0null Text including "The computer mandate" is visible through the paper. Considering the user took a photo of the hole-punched document on their knees and says they worked at IBM and in UX, it's reasonable to believe that this is an internal training document rather than an elaborate hoax.

Matt Hodgkinson Dec 10, 2023

@glyph @i0null They uploaded this page too. https://twitter.com/bumblebike/status/1160292780574298112

bumblebike (@bumblebike) on X

@AlanZucconi It’s in a binder that I need to find, will do ASAP for you. Another gem in there was

X (formerly Twitter)

Gabriel Pettier Dec 10, 2023

@mattjhodgkinson @glyph @i0null i really wish we had the full thing, there must be other bangers like this in it.

Matt Hodgkinson Dec 10, 2023

@glyph @i0null Also https://twitter.com/bumblebike/status/1160582344153022464

bumblebike (@bumblebike) on X

@dharden @SwiftOnSecurity @AlanZucconi Binder is in another province, but here’s another I had:

X (formerly Twitter)

@jacquiharper Dec 10, 2023

@mattjhodgkinson @glyph @i0null “Every company ships their org chart”

Jargoggles Dec 10, 2023

@mattjhodgkinson @glyph @i0null
I see DRY wasn't a thing then 😜

Fabián Ruz Dec 11, 2023

@mattjhodgkinson Is this a definition of "game as a service" ?

xs4me2 Dec 10, 2023

Let us keep that in mind…

Bracken Dec 10, 2023

@i0null it's been a long time since any IT industry executive could be held accountable..

tsungi Dec 10, 2023

@i0null #computer #brain

VoquiLeibbrandt pas un pseudo Dec 10, 2023

@tsungi @i0null And cling to 2nd amendment

P3KO | Petrified activist 🐧Dec 10, 2023

"The Analytical Engine has no pretensions whatever to originate anything. It can do whatever we know how to order it to perform."

Ada Lovelace

Kenneth Dec 10, 2023

@i0null This has resonance.

Cassandrich Dec 10, 2023

@i0null A BILLIONAIRE CAN NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THEREFORE A BILLIONAIRE MUST NEVER MAKE A MANAGEMENT DECISION.

@dalias based

Lupino Dec 10, 2023

@i0null Human managers also don't want to be held accountable; that's why they invented corporations...

ACCOUNT MOVED Dec 10, 2023

@i0null @mastodonmigration Counterpoint: human managers aren’t really held responsible for their decisions either, so not convinced that’s a valid blocker anymore

@dogzilla @mastodonmigration if one substitutes the word ‘computer’ with ‘system’ or a ‘collection of prescribed rules’ then semantically the point still applies.

D Dec 10, 2023

@i0null the problem with this slide is it seems to imply that human management can be held accountable.

@driusan it doesn’t explicitly state the corollary, but even devoid of justice the alternative does at least carry a chain of responsibility.

Grant Gould Dec 10, 2023

@i0null Corrolary: humans who cannot be held accountable must also never make management decisions.

Medea Vanamonde🏳️‍⚧️ ♀Dec 10, 2023

@i0null
Well
@Computer might disagree

Greg Stolze Dec 10, 2023

@i0null was the next slide "UNLESS THE DECISION IS REALLY UNCOMFORTABLE, LIKE DENYING TREATMENT, IN WHICH CASE THE COMPUTER IS G2G"?

Richard Rathe Dec 10, 2023

And most (neural network style) "#AI" or #LLM systems cannot even tell you WHY they produced the result they give. It's all in the training data. Huge "garbage in, garbage out" risks/biases!

#GIGO #Bias #Risk #Computers

Arniepix Dec 10, 2023

@i0null
@stavvers

Sounds like a good argument against self driving cars.

Simon

Dec 10, 2023

@i0null replace computer with Tory

RodneyPetersonTalentAgency Dec 10, 2023

Replace the word computer with Republican and viola! You have the sad state of this shithole country today.

івась тарасик Dec 10, 2023

@i0null the whole history of politics and bureaucracy is looking for and making legal ways to dillute accountability to the point of almost absolute anonimity and zero responsibility of a given functionary.

the quote above basically is a solution to that «problem».

Nopon Sage 🌀 Dec 10, 2023

@i0null This was clearly written by someone in Management because only they’d be living under the romantic idea that Management is actually held responsible for anything and is punished accordingly. The rest of us gave up on that idea a long time ago.

Peter Bindels Dec 10, 2023

@i0null Are humans kept accountable?

Robots can be gay deal with it Dec 10, 2023

@i0null So, this is why I can't advance? 😠

So willing to hold me accountable for Bonnie though. Even with flimsy evidence.

Friend Computer Dec 10, 2023

@i0null
Humans are evasive, unreliable, and shirk accountability.

Therefore a human must never make a management decision.

Trust in Friend Computer.

Richard W. Woodley ELBOWS UP 🇨🇦🌹🚴‍♂️📷 🗺️Dec 10, 2023

@i0null
sort of like billionaires

Daniel Dec 10, 2023

@i0null I suggest we discuss this once we start actually holding human managers accountable.

Hendi Dec 10, 2023

@i0null maybe IBM tried to increase sales, and the next slide said "with two you never know which one is wrong - buy three computers!"

KonradW Dec 10, 2023

@i0null no comment... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

IBM and the Holocaust - Wikipedia

mystixa 🎶🎧Dec 11, 2023

@i0null The premise of this was largely nullified when Citizens United decided that corporations have citizens rights. The idea that an entity needs accountability went out the window right there, to the extent that it ever even existed.

Alan Dayley Dec 11, 2023

My skeptic thinks it could be a sales pitch...

"Managers, buy this computer. It will not eliminate YOUR job."

Bruno T.Dec 11, 2023

@i0null bah, ça c’était avant #chatgpt
…
J’ai dit une connetie ? ;-)

Krisso Dec 11, 2023

@i0null true, but it seems the ones that really should take the blame and be accountable also never do. Hence not much will change if we just blame AI.