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Sanders says he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible ‘with an organization like Hamas’

https://lemmy.world/post/7852566

Sanders says he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible ‘with an organization like Hamas’ - Lemmy.World

Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved. “I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.

eskimofry Nov 6, 2023

Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one considering his general stance. Barack Obama had a better understanding here:

How about Israel stop bombing civilians so that Hamas doesn’t get new recruits? Does it really not occur to them that 7000+ civilians killed isn’t going to radicalize more youth. Especially since Gaza’s demogaraphic is mostly youngsters due to past conflicts killing off those who survive for longer.

It’s quite clear that in this conflict, the following people have all the gain: Netanyahu who wants to prolong the war to keep corruption charges and an ouster at bay, by winning favor with Israel conservative fubdamentalists; Hamas who successfully intervened when relations were about to be mended with the Saudis, Israel, and a few other countries; Putin, whom the U.S is funding against in the conflict with Ukraine; U.S. war manufacturers that supply the missiles to Israel.

givesomefucks Nov 6, 2023

Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one

If you ever read a headline about Bernie and are disappointed in what he said, it’s a pretty good chance he said some other stuff too that got left out.

“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”

Just because the headline doesn’t have him also criticizing Netanyahu, doesn’t mean he’s suddenly supporting him.

eskimofry Nov 6, 2023

Agree with you. I was browsing when out on a weekend and fell for the clickbait.

bustrpoindextr Nov 6, 2023

The problem with his idea is that Hamas actively refuses the two state solution and has been doing so violently for decades. That’s their whole thing.

And then you’ve got Netanyahu on the other side. Which… You know

SwampYankee Nov 7, 2023

The PLO called for the elimination of Israel as well. That changed after the first intifada and it’s the closest we’ve ever been to peace. This is a different and much more fraught situation, though. I don’t expect conciliation on the part of Hamas after this.

Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin Nov 8, 2023

I mean at this point the two state solution is entirely a political fiction. Bibi has seen to it with his support of the settlers in WB.

Only shot now is to fold in everyone and turn it into the Confederation of Jerusalem. Expose the extremists of both sides to electoral accountability from the tired masses they try to demonize now that they’re voting members of the public too.

IHawkMike Nov 6, 2023

The CNN article seeps to be cherry-picking his statements. This is his op-ed on the topic which is much more in-depth:

theguardian.com/…/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-…

Gaza needs a humanitarian pause. Then we need a vision of where we go from here

One thing is clear: there cannot be a return to the status quo that existed in Gaza before the war

The Guardian

photonic_sorcerer Nov 6, 2023

Yeah you need to actually read what he said.

CarbonIceDragon Nov 6, 2023

I mean, at this point, just stopping the bombing isn’t going to stop giving Hamas recruits, because people will remember the bombings and other things already done, and will remember for a long time, and Hamas is certainly going to milk them for all they can get. Continuing the bombing makes things much worse of course, but just stopping by itself isn’t all that’s needed for peace, just the start. Which is what I suspect he’s getting at based on some of the context other people have replied, a cease-fire that just returns things to how they were before the current elevated level of conflict isn’t viable, because the same conditions would exist that led to what is going on now, and so it would just happen again sometime later.

Apollo Nov 6, 2023

Gaza doesn’t have a young population because the old people died in fighting, Gaza has a young population because its birth rate is insane.

kittenzrulz123 Nov 6, 2023

I don’t think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

Yeah, that’d be crazy if it was happening.

kittenzrulz123 Nov 6, 2023

It would be crazy if you had basic empathy for the almost 4,000 Palestinian children killed

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

I’m just sick to fucking death of extremists. I didn’t leave the alt-right shithole that’s Reddit to just watch tankie shitheads feign “empathy”. The vast majority of you didn’t give a single, watery shit about any child in the Middle East a month ago.

Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful two-state solution. Even offering to construct and maintain an elevated highway and rail corridor between Gaza and the West Bank. They even offered a plan where they would have forcefully relocated established Jewish settlements. But none of that was good enough for the Palestinians and Arafat. Ever hear the phrase “from the river to the sea”? If you haven’t, you should look into the history of that.

You won’t catch me saying the IDF is perfect and gargling everything from the Jerusalem Post. But you also won’t find me saying that Gaza is an “open air prison” when they share a border with Egypt, were originally territory of Egypt that Egypt didn’t even want back, and have a coastline on the Mediterranean. All this talk of “genocide” and “open air prison” being caused by Israel is fucking delusional.

Educate yourself on the history of this region from actual historical sources. Start with the citations on Wikipedia if you actually want to know who’s in the right and who’s in the wrong. Don’t go listening to fucking TikTokers or influencers.

Whether you like it or not, Israel tried for decades to reach a peaceful, two-state solution. The Palestinians rejected all plans, even those that had Israel putting its own security in jeopardy. The international community never stepped in to force a peace plan. Israel was abandoned by the world and told to fight with both hands tied behind its back. Is it any wonder that fascists like Netanyahu and Likud were able to come to power in Israel? They tried electing moderates and pursuing peace for years, but all they got was a slap in the face.

If you want true peace in the Middle East, then it’s going to require a massive international military intervention to force a peace; there is no other way. This may shock you, but that intervention would actually be an invasion and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. So either support that, or shut the fuck up.

kittenzrulz123 Nov 6, 2023

Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

I am aware of i24, Kahanism, Gavir, etc. And if you want to throw historical words and events around, I know about the assassination of Rabin at the hands of far-right Zionists, the Deir Yassin Massacre, etc.

So, tankie shithead. How far back do you want to go with the history of this land? How about back to the Roman empire? Back when there was an Israeli kingdom that was a vassal to them. Were the Jews colonizers of an apartheid state then? You want to talk about “colonizers” and “apartheid”? How about we talk about how the Jews became slaves at worst and third-rate inhabitants at best in their own homeland? What religion and ethnicity were the people who moved into the area and took the land after the Roman empire fell?

Oh is that too far back for you? Then let’s start with when the British and UN voted to bring he Israelis back to their homeland. Did they just up and evict all the Palestinians? A people with no army or international supporters? Is that all that happened? Oh wait, there was something about an Arab League and Palestinian government lead by literal Arab Nazis who had been friends with Himmler and Hitler and literally directly participated in the Holocaust.

After that, how about we talk about the eviction of Jews from Muslim nations in the 1950s because they got so fucking butthurt over losing to the Jews in Israel. People who had lived in those lands as slaves for generations.

You are out of your fucking mind and your fucking league. You don’t know shit about the Middle East.

kittenzrulz123 Nov 6, 2023

I’m not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I’m Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

That’s good for you. As an American who has spent months in multiple Muslim countries in the Middle East, then let me say this to you.

You and I have common ground in that we would both vehemently and violently condemn the atrocities committed by Israelis. The massacres of Muslims in the past century, attacks by them on their own allies, and the murder and torture of Palestinians by Jewish settlers. Israel has blood on its hands. It’s a failure of righteousness to forget and ignore the atrocities committed by Israel just because they’re an “ally”. Netanyahu, the leadership of Likud, and most of its politicians should be imprisoned for life at the very least.

But, that changes nothing about how ignorant you personally are of history and the situation in the Middle East. I do not have to be an Israeli to read extensively on the history of the region and to understand morality and context. The only morally correct outcome here is a two-state solution. Israel is the the only party in this conflict that has genuinely pursued this solution.

The harsh and vile reality is that some Palestinians have supported peace for decades, but they are ruled over by a majority that opposes peace. There was a geopolitical fork in the road decades ago, and the international community chose the fork where they left “self-determination” up to the violent murderers in charge of Palestine. Israel has an obligation to put the lives of its own citizens over the lives of others; just as you have an obligation to put the lives of anyone you have responsibility for over someone who would take them. It’s tragic that children die. But the greater tragedy is that the UN and other nations could have stopped this decades ago and were too cowardly to do so.

I’m not going to give you a history lesson. It’s up to you to do your own research and come to the right conclusion.

jordanlund Nov 6, 2023

You aren’t wrong, but I can tell you’re smart enough to make your point without rule 3 ad hominem attacks.

SilentStorms Nov 6, 2023

The fact that you’re citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it’s not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.

Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You’re spouting bullshit and look a fool.

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

And why does Israel control and inspect what aid they can that enters Gaza? Cause they’re just fucking dicks? Can’t Egypt or the UN just ship in aid from the Egyptian border or with their own naval assets? Why do you think they choose not to?

Educate yourself on how Hamas uses aid material to build rockets to hit Israel. You’re spouting bullshit and making a fool out of yourself.

SilentStorms Nov 6, 2023

Ok, so you’re not saying Gaza isn’t an open-air prison, you’re just defending why it should be one. Cool.

Aylex Nov 6, 2023

Abandoned by the world?! Are you completely removed from reality?

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

I’m sorry, do you think that America is the sole representative of the world? Are you completely removed from reality?

Nudding Nov 6, 2023

What a load of horse shit lmao.

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

cool story bro 😎

Nudding Nov 6, 2023

👉😎👉

Redrum714 Nov 6, 2023

They ain’t wrong lmao

Arlaerion Nov 7, 2023

The Likud Party hat that phrase in it’s founding charter: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”

Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like “take back what was ours”. It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.

Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution…

CommanderM2192 Nov 7, 2023

Do you only get you talking points from tankie TikTok?

Person A: “I live in this land, and I will continue living in this land” Person B: “Only I will live in this land, not you”

Does that help your tankie peabrain better understand why it’s genocidal in the way Palestinians use it? Also, depending on how far back you want to go with “before”, the Jews were actually there before the Palestinians. Up until the Romans sold some of them into slavery and then the Muslims came in to finish the job.

Regardless, Likud are extremists and should not be in power. Just like Hamas and the PLO.

Arlaerion Nov 7, 2023

I am not your enemy, I’m taking part in a discussion. Also this is my first post in this thread, stop talking like I personally offended you.

I explicitly wrote about the state of Israel and not the Jewish people. So the timeframe of my argument the founding of Israel and the decades after that. Jewish europeans settled there since the end of the 19th century, and for almost half a century it worked. The phrase started being used after that.

NoneOfUrBusiness Nov 6, 2023

Surprise: It's not. They're giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?

Is it Egypt’s since they were the previous owners of the land before Israel took it in a war started by Egypt? How about the UN? It’s not like they literally have an entire organization whose sole purpose is to provide aid to the Palestinians.

Oh? It’s solely Israel? Israel is solely responsible for the welfare of a people where the majority want to genocide them? Not Egypt or the UN? Not Hamas? Not the PLO? Only Israel?

Either put some fucking pressure on your own country and the UN to step the fuck up and provide real aid, or fuck off.

History of Gaza - Wikipedia

NoneOfUrBusiness Nov 6, 2023

So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?

Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they're not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel.

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

I’m sorry, but I think you forgot to read my post and any of the links I sarcastically provided. Let me just copy and paste it below for you. Just trying to help a smoothbrain tankie out since you don’t seem to understand the concepts of the international aid, ports, and land borders.

So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?

Is it Egypt’s since they were the previous owners of the land before Israel took it in a war started by Egypt? How about the UN? It’s not like they literally have an entire organization whose sole purpose is to provide aid to the Palestinians.

Oh? It’s solely Israel? Israel is solely responsible for the welfare of a people where the majority want to genocide them? Not Egypt or the UN? Not Hamas? Not the PLO? Only Israel?

Either put some fucking pressure on your own country and the UN to step the fuck up and provide real aid, or fuck off.

History of Gaza - Wikipedia

idiomaddict Nov 6, 2023

How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?

CommanderM2192 Nov 6, 2023

Personally, I think it’s the responsibility of the major powers in the UN. We all contributed to how fucked up this situation is. Even if we didn’t, it’d still be the right thing to do.

I just point this shit out and troll because tankies want to try and put the blame on Israel and get triggered when anyone tries to put the blame on any other country by actually using logic and history. Regardless, providing aid is just the right thing to do and it’s the responsibility of the UNRWA to ensure their services aren’t used by terrorists to support their efforts to kill Israelis.

mwguy Nov 7, 2023

How about this. It’s the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it’s citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.

idiomaddict Nov 8, 2023

Given that the plans that government arranged for are being thwarted by Israel, it seems they are taking steps to reassert their ability to feed their people. I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere. If you’re content with the way Hamas handles things, by all means, leave them with no humanitarian support or other options.

mwguy Nov 8, 2023

I don’t think that’s the best solution here, that Hamas keeps attacking Israel, so I’m looking elsewhere.

In normal warfare. When a siege shows that it’s has the ability to starve the populace if continued; it’s the duty of the seiged to surrender before their population starts to starve.

idiomaddict Nov 8, 2023

Or to try to escalate. Which do you honestly think Hamas will do?

mwguy Nov 8, 2023

Honestly, they’re dying. Israel estimates they’ve killed 1/4th of their Army. And based on the things that they’re trying to smuggle in it (oxygen equipment) seems like they might have a significant amount of their forces stuck underground, caved in.

idiomaddict Nov 8, 2023

That either makes them fight more desperately or we wait a generation for the surviving Palestinians to grow up and start the fight anew.

We know how this goes, unless Israel makes huge concessions or starts killing even larger numbers of Palestinians

mwguy Nov 8, 2023

That army was just used offensively against Israel. It must be considered valid to fight it. Those fighters can choose to surrender.

idiomaddict Nov 8, 2023

You think they will?

mwguy Nov 8, 2023

Some will.

idiomaddict Nov 9, 2023

But enough to have peace?

mwguy Nov 10, 2023

At the rate Israel is going? Yes.

Dead men always make peace.

idiomaddict Nov 13, 2023

So to summarize: in your opinion, Hamas and Israel are both doing exactly what they should be?

mwguy Nov 14, 2023

No. Should? No. But are they on a path to peace if they keep fighting? Yes. A cease fire delays eventual peace if the disagreement between to sides is incurable. And at this point it does seem as if it’s incurable.

takeda Nov 6, 2023

Egypt also could provide help, but for some “strange reason” they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won’t provide any help beyond weapons. They don’t give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that’s “even better”.

mwguy Nov 6, 2023

Their military occupiers, Israel.

Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn’t occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn’t for decades.

NoneOfUrBusiness Nov 7, 2023

Then why is the Gaza strip considered to be occupied by the UN?

mwguy Nov 7, 2023

1 nation one vote combine with a European history of hating Jews and Gypsies.

NoneOfUrBusiness Nov 7, 2023

That's... well... an original opinion, at least.

mwguy Nov 7, 2023

Is it? Have you ever asked a European about their opinions on Jews and Gypsies? I’d make a KKK member blush.

NoneOfUrBusiness Nov 7, 2023

I know that, but assuming that influence somehow makes it all the way to the UN is tenuous at best. You're gonna need proof for that. Also, European countries are 44 out of a total of 193, so even if somehow they were all ruled by antisemites, that's not nearly enough to make the whole UN antisemitic.

The UN is one of the least biased entities in the world, so if you think they're biased, there's a good chance you're the one being biased.

mwguy Nov 7, 2023

44 European nations plus 56 Islamic nations is essentially a majority.

The UN is one of the least biased entities in the world, so if you think they’re biased, there’s a good chance you’re the one being biased.

I’m what way? The UN has confirmed Israel more than every other thing that has happened on the planet combine. How is that not bias?

mwguy Nov 8, 2023

There’s an additional 56 Islamic nations. Combine with the Cold War nations on the Soviet side that still vote with them.

The Old World loves to hate Jews.

logos Nov 6, 2023

All aid has to be approved and funneled through Israel. Remember the freedom floatilla?

Gaza Freedom Flotilla - Wikipedia