Mastodawn

fhronesis Sep 4, 2023

I see people on my timeline now and then grumpy that people are trying to encourage others to use alt-text, sometimes saying people are "too pushy" or they "deserve to be able to post in peace."

So folks actively work together for once to advocate for accessibility for disabled people and your primary complaint is that it's annoying so stop? I hope folks wake up and realize how fucked up that is.

ESPECIALLY when tons of people refuse to wear masks leaving us stuck in our homes where social media is a godsend for having community.

I'd have loved to see these folks' reactions when people in wheelchairs were using sledge hammers to put in curb cuts back in the day. Maybe we gotta bring that kind of energy back. #Disablity #DisabilityJustice

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

I'm so glad this has taken off! So I want to ask anyone here a question: Why doesn't Mastodon simply require #alttext on every post?

It is implied the "convenience" of abled people is more important because the product needs to grow than it is for disabled people to be able to have their accessibility needs met.

Hell, even TikTok has the option to not see any uncaptioned videos! We can expect Mastodon to do better. Perhaps we can all get @Gargron to consider implementing required alt-text for the entire platform to fix this issue. #Disability #DisabilityJustice

Edit: Yep, gotta not post so early in the morning because you forget obvious things! We would need to figure out a way for folks who are unable to create alt-text on photos themselves to be included in this process.

I've seen folks also suggesting the idea of allowing folks to generate alt-text for others, which would be cool. I'd love to see any suggestions people have because otherwise, people will keep being "annoyed" by folks who simply want to enjoy Mastodon to add alt-text!

Hat. AuDHD cat 😷🌺🍉🌻🔻Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron because alt text isn't a virtue signal
MANY DISABLED PEOPLE CANNOT CREATE IT.
So if ALT TEXT is required, you are excluding people who have disabilities that prevent them from being able to post images AT ALL.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@CatHat @Gargron Hmm... Okay that's legitimately fair then!

There's gotta be a better solution then where we are at now though, with folks complaining because they got asked to use it at all.

If this means allowing folks to opt in to let folks write it for them, it'd at least be something.

Hat. AuDHD cat 😷🌺🍉🌻🔻Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron i think everyone who CAN should do so. But its NOT FAIR to attack people who CANNOT describe things because of not being able to do it.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@CatHat @Gargron I'm certainly not attacking folks who cannot.

This all started with complaints from folks who absolutely can being tired of being asked to when they don't. Those are the folks I want to get on the right track.

Hat. AuDHD cat 😷🌺🍉🌻🔻Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron i don't because i CAN'T. Idk but far too many people seem to want to score points in the "kindness to the poor unfortunates" game of showing off how charitable they are.

Meanwhile it does sweet fuckall to persuade people to create text thwt HELPS when im looking at complex images.
There needs to be SOME social context rules spelled out for people who dont do tacit hints

Hat. AuDHD cat 😷🌺🍉🌻🔻Sep 7, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron things like
Private conversation
In my general best guess thats probably vaguely analogous to speaking in a foreign language the people around you dont speak.

i am not sure who needs alt text for random ass crap only 2 sighted people are interested in anyway.

Hat. AuDHD cat 😷🌺🍉🌻🔻Sep 7, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron obviously important public info requires leaving nothing out at all.

But in between HOW MUCH to say and what counts as important.
What is an appropriate use for alt 4 you.

Nobody has spelled this out for me =/

AccordionBruce Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron
Something like this at least

The “nag“ could be institutionalized, rather than the current cultural practice where it’s put on users to suggest it politely

Which is now broadcast as rude, though it has had such a positive impact that Mastodon posters have voluntarily added more alt Text to that they now have perhaps the most accessible platform ever for visually impaired readers

That is unprecedented, and something to be tremendously proud of

#altText #Disability

AccordionBruce Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron

Mastodon has successfully built this welcoming feature. It should strengthen it not discard it

Making the alt-text ask a step in the image upload process (or other platform architecture rather than just the “culture”) will help make this positive feature feel like less of a personal attack

For people who feel easily insulted by disabled people wanting to exist in society—see, the app won’t guilt trip anybody like that 😹

#altText #disability

E. Murphy, the name you know Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @Gargron Speaking as a software dev, make it required and a significant number of pictures will have alt text of "."

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@emurphy @Gargron I can't even deny that I agree with you, a lot of folks will still kinda suck about it.

Perhaps instead of reminders to post with alt-text being opt in, they should be opt out?

And even then, maybe taking an idea from TikTok to allow folks to skip out on non alt-text posts could be a cool ideas. Also have this defaulted to being on, really encourage people to use things as they should.

ありさん Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill This would definitely help a lot of people who simply forget to add alt txt despite meaning to.

Jupiter Rowland Sep 4, 2023

@Borealis AKA the LiteralGrill You have to keep a few things in mind.

One, not everyone uses #Mastodon through its Web interface on a desktop computer. There's a plethora of mobile apps for it, and most people are on mobile phones.

Two, #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse. Not everyone is on Mastodon. About 20% of the #Fediverse aren't Mastodon. Even though I'm currently the only one in this thread who isn't.

If you want to implement mandatory #AltText in the entire Fediverse, you have to make dozens of independent projects implement it. And I know at least three of them on which alt-text is not created through a dedicated text field on the GUI.

(By the way, I'm not against alt-text and #ImageDescriptions. I'm currently taking a break from writing an #ImageDescription that'll be several times longer than what Mastodon's alt-text could possibly contain.)

Netzgemeinde/Hubzilla

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@jupiter_rowland Yes, I know trying to make this fediverse wide would be a serious challenge. It'd be great to see happen, but I get that.

Mastodon has the capability however as one of the most popular parts of the fediverse to set an example for everywhere else by putting in stronger features to require alt-text. Which I think it should 100% do.

I'm not a tech person, I don't know the how of making this happen I admit that. I'd hope folks on mobile and those developing apps would be on board with helping disabled people though because if not, why aren't they?

Diligent Circle 丸 Sep 5, 2023

@literalgrill Mandatory alt-text would be a problem because not every image should have alt-text. This isn't a new concept, if you look up accessibility guides for HTML, writing alt="" (i.e. explicitly empty alt-text) is recommended for images that are irrelevant to blind readers. Users of screen readers don't need to hear repeated or unnecessary information, that actually decreases accessibility because then they have to filter that out.

🕷️

Kat the Leopardess Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill I have also seen people make the argument that the pressing for alt tags is what makes Mastodon full of elitist assholes that wanna be right all the time. (and hence why Bluesky is more attractive)

They argue that asking for alt tags is "tone policing"

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k Gotta love it, right? There's plenty of overpushy people on here (hell on any social media) but the moment disabled folks ask for ANYTHING it's too much for some folks. It's baffling.

Kat the Leopardess Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill Yeah, this is an example of using the language of the oppressed

Yingtai Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill I am concerned that a lot of people would just switch to providing useless alt text like "image" if it was required by the interface. You wouldn't believe how much of that literal exact alt text I see on Tumblr. It exists in Fedi too and screenreader users are really frustrated by it.

I think what would help is a warning if you're going to post an image without alt text. And an ugly eyecatching border on images like that, which some instances already do.

@Catwoman69y2k @literalgrill IMO it's how the people do it.

Best folks are the ones who reply with alt text added.

Next are the ones who politely encourage use of alt text and point out how it's done.

The ones I suspect get the "mastodon elitist" label are the ones that are either aggressively demanding, condescending or making harsh accusations of deliberate malicious ableism over missing alt text.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@beeoproblem @Catwoman69y2k Let's legit ask a question, why doesn't Mastodon simply require all posts have alt-text? It'd solve the whole problem!

The reality is folks are angry a the implicit implication that people needing "convenience" to grow the platform is more important than having disabled voices on the platform. Which is where the anger and aggression part comes from.

People wouldn't "forget" if they couldn't forget. Older websites required alt-text while uploading pictures, I remember the days of those forums when the net loaded slowly and it was a curb cut effect that helped everyone.

We should go back to that! If everyone has to use alt-text, we've solved this whole problem.

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

Kat the Leopardess Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I do recall some posts discussing use cases where people might not (be able) to use alt tags (but it's not a matter of ill or exclusionary intent) . I can't pull up these toots just now

if all Fedi apps forced an alt tag to be applied before it would post... would that be going too far by forcing it?

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k @beeoproblem Yeah, I've seen folks saying that today too, it does sadly create another issue.

I've also been told that programming required alt-text due to the federated nature of Mastodon actually causes issues too from the boring programming side of things.

Maybe we can find a way to have a feature so folks can suggest alt-text for users?

Kat the Leopardess Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I believe that has been discussed as well. Trying to find the post about it.

It was basically a method similar to the "unroll" trigger word that people did on Twitter.

Yingtai Sep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k @literalgrill @beeoproblem

I think this is the thread you were looking for, where @bright_helpings (who is blind) talked about how he challenged hardline stances on alt text. Also ways to request help in writing image descriptions (a preferred term because they don't have to be in the alt text). https://mspsocial.net/@bright_helpings/108219848954173037

Old Erik 👿 (@[email protected])

I'm seeing a lot of proclamations that there should be no exceptions to describing your images or that there's no reason to interact with any that aren't described. I know these mean well, but they are themselves ableist. Disabled people know that access needs can clash. I benefit from described images, but I know some people struggle to write them because of their own disabilities. And that's okay! The culture of image descriptions is great here but it should never be absolutist.

MSP Social.net

Kat the Leopardess Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I see 2 hashtags that might be related to this convo

ALT4me and ALT4you

Also: https://social.beaware.live/@BeAware/110905359767829265

BeAware :fediverse: (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Challenge for all you #Alttext worshipers who don't understand the skill it takes to accurately describe something. Here, describe this to a blind person without having a stroke. Please and thank you. Most of you are really making people feel bad for something that is genuinely difficult to do in some situations. For lots of #neurodivergent people, you may as well be asking them to fix world hunger. It's just not possible for us. Asking someone to accurately describe something like this is insanity, but having no alt text doesn't devalue the work or the human behind it that can't do fancy words.

BeAware

@literalgrill @Catwoman69y2k IMO letting other folks provide alt text would be a great feature

Yingtai Sep 4, 2023

@beeoproblem I wish I could agree that the answer is writing alt text for other people, but I do a fair amount of that, and usually they ignore it. No edit, likes or thanks.

I think they see it as a passive-aggressive hint.

Once in a blue moon someone will write back gratefully, but those are usually the people who had minimal alt text to begin with.

Here's my latest, if you're curious. It's for video, but that can and should have alt text too. https://zirk.us/@yingtai/110994174972559047

Yingtai (@[email protected])

Content warning: Video description

zirkus

Yingtai Sep 4, 2023

@beeoproblem I should add that the reason I continue to write image descriptions for other people is that I have followers who are screenreader users. If I boost something which doesn't have alt text, then I boost my description along with it. When we get quote toots, I'll switch to that format. @literalgrill

AccordionBruce Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill
It’s one of the genuinely nice/welcoming cultural features on Mastodon that’s been nonsensically lumped in with offensive experiences when “racists told me not to talk about racism”

#disability #altText

Kara Goldfinch Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill I love stories of disabled people going we're Tired of this and taking things into our own hands. It also saddens me the amount of other blind people I've come across over the years that've basically said to put up and shut up and accept things as they are. I used to be one of them unfortunately.
I don't think I've gone as far as smashing up curbs, which I'm in favour of, but I'm not against having a good stern word with someone if I feel it's needed.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@KaraLG84 My bus stop by my house got me injured and we're forced to use bus lanes here. If the city keeps refusing to fix it soon, I'm about ready for the sledge hammer purely because I need to use the bus dang it!

But yeah, there's an easy solution here for Mastodon: Require alt-text on ALL posts. Hard code this into Mastodon. Why isn't this happening?

The implication is that blind folks aren't worth the "convenience" of abled folks. And I'm not okay with that.

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

wb x64 Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill no maybe about it, it's definitely time for that energy. Don't beg for scraps, create the world that's inhabitable

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@wilbr Absolutely agree! I want folks to think about why Mastodon doesn't simply require alt-text on all photos uploaded.

It's not unprecedented, older internet forums had these requirements! Why are we saying that people's "convenience" is more important than blind people's accessibility? Maybe someone should bother John Mastodon till this changes...

wb x64 Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill also we control our own servers and the software on it, pretty easy to copy paste a repo with one line of code perpetually added 😈

inaforest Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill in my experience, its OK to be reminded to include alt-text but some of the people reminding just need to be able to do this in a friendly manner. Condescending tones from pro-alt-text advocates WILL get peoples backs up.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@inaforest Truthfully, I think it'd be nice to lead with kindness too.

However, I 100% get the folks who don't. Disabled folks have to fight so hard every day to just have these kinds of needs met. If anything, why doesn't Mastodon simply require alt-text on all posts? It'd solve this problem entirely.

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

inaforest Sep 5, 2023

@literalgrill I have zero time for people lacking kindness or are basically uncivil where it comes to comments on anothers post. Its not a conflict, its the subject of alt-text, in this case

Syltti Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill I mean, I can understand why folks are grumpy about it. Folks just want to share content. I can see why it gets irritating when they look at their comments and see people "trying to encourage" alt-text by either yelling at them to include it or throwing a wall of alt-text at them. It's fine to want to make sure folks that use screen readers can be included in the fun, but being aggressive in trying to get an OPto include at-text isn't going to work.

Mind you, I don't see a lot of agression, but I do see multiple comments JUST for at-text alone.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@Syltti So honestly then, what is your suggestion to make folks do it if we can't be "irritating?"

I'm certainly not against Mastodon requiring alt-text on every picture posted, but minus that, what's the plan?

The multiple comments thing tends to be a Mastodon specific problem with how stuff is displayed, it happens on most posts with discussions sadly. But if people want to avoid multiple posts asking for alt-text, there's a simple solution.

But as it stands, I don't mind if people get annoyed by being asked. Disabled folks have to be extremely annoyed every day about heir accessibility needs being met. Almost every advancement of disability rights has come through being "annoying."

So like, unless there's another solution, I'm so happy I found a place where people are showing up for us disabled folks for once. If that bothers people, they can either be thoughtful and add alt-text or deal with the consequences of not caring about disabled people, aka feeling "irritated."

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

carbon offsets are BS ☕️🥬Sep 4, 2023

> what is your suggestion to make folks do it

You don’t.

I can’t even get people I know personally to stop funding the torture of animals.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@plasma4045 I mean, mine is to require alt-text on all of Mastodon.

Yes, some people will just add a single letter and still be sucky. But it'd still be a HUGE start.

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

Syltti Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill My suggestion would be to understand that out-right demanding at-text is ridiculous. I understand the why, I add alt-text myself where I can. I also understand that there are a lot of people that either post content (memes/discussions/ect) that aren't as aware of the disabled community. I doubt many would be adverse to adding it IF asked politely. However, dumping alt-text on someone with a Alt4You hashtag is not asking; that's demanding.

At most, your instance's admins could add including alt-text to the instance rules/guidelines, but, even then, it's not like you, or anyone else, can force people. I get that you're frustrated too, but that's life. You don't don't get to participate in everything. (This applies for those of us that aren't disabled as well, if that wasn't obvious.)

Syltti Sep 4, 2023

@literalgrill If you really need folks to add alt-text, simply ask. Once. If you see someone else already has, move on. A bunch of people asking for the same thing could either see that thing happen, or see that thing 1) not happen, and 2) see that person not engaging anymore.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@Syltti Just a question, can you name me single instance in the history of the disability justice movement that any rights were given because people asked politely?

The unfortunate truth of it is asking nicely for things like this has been shown historically not to work. Those people who aren't aware of disabled people are being educated literally by the people who are asking for people to include alt text.

People using a hashtag to give people alt text for free so they don't even have to do any work is way kinder than they even need to be! They are literally doing The thing for someone else, so if they feel bad because that happened, maybe it's because they feel shitty that they weren't nice to disabled people?

If people would choose to not use alt text to be an ally towards disabled people just because they thought someone was slightly rude when they asked, they were never allies in the first place.

For the getting multiple posts asking for the same thing, again that's a mastodon issue. It would be cool if people fully opened up posts before commenting, but that doesn't seem to be a fully cultural thing for this bit of social media yet.

carbon offsets are BS ☕️🥬Sep 4, 2023

Mastodon should add a feature that allows anyone to write an alt text and submit it to OP for approval.

That way those that care a lot about this can do it themselves and all OP has to do is read and approve it.

LiteralGrill Sep 4, 2023

@plasma4045 Why not simply require alt-text on all posts? Extremely easy to implement, right?

The "convenience" of abled folks to just post shouldn't be more important than disabled people having access. This is why people are angry and bothering people to do it.

carbon offsets are BS ☕️🥬Sep 4, 2023

Who’s checking to make sure it’s accurate? That’s impossible.

For example, sites that require my email to read an article get “[email protected]”. It’s not good data.

That’s the type of stuff you get when you require more steps to do something people are used to doing quickly.