LiteralGrillSep 4, 2023

I see people on my timeline now and then grumpy that people are trying to encourage others to use alt-text, sometimes saying people are "too pushy" or they "deserve to be able to post in peace."

So folks actively work together for once to advocate for accessibility for disabled people and your primary complaint is that it's annoying so stop? I hope folks wake up and realize how fucked up that is.

ESPECIALLY when tons of people refuse to wear masks leaving us stuck in our homes where social media is a godsend for having community.

I'd have loved to see these folks' reactions when people in wheelchairs were using sledge hammers to put in curb cuts back in the day. Maybe we gotta bring that kind of energy back. #Disablity #DisabilityJustice

Show threadKat the Leopardess

@literalgrill I have also seen people make the argument that the pressing for alt tags is what makes Mastodon full of elitist assholes that wanna be right all the time. (and hence why Bluesky is more attractive)

They argue that asking for alt tags is "tone policing"

Sep 4, 2023 at 2:59amWeb
Show threadLiteralGrillSep 4, 2023
@Catwoman69y2k Gotta love it, right? There's plenty of overpushy people on here (hell on any social media) but the moment disabled folks ask for ANYTHING it's too much for some folks. It's baffling.
Show threadKat the LeopardessSep 4, 2023
@literalgrill Yeah, this is an example of using the language of the oppressed
Show threadYingtaiSep 4, 2023

@literalgrill I am concerned that a lot of people would just switch to providing useless alt text like "image" if it was required by the interface. You wouldn't believe how much of that literal exact alt text I see on Tumblr. It exists in Fedi too and screenreader users are really frustrated by it.

I think what would help is a warning if you're going to post an image without alt text. And an ugly eyecatching border on images like that, which some instances already do.

Show threadBee O'Problem Sep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k @literalgrill IMO it's how the people do it.

Best folks are the ones who reply with alt text added.

Next are the ones who politely encourage use of alt text and point out how it's done.

The ones I suspect get the "mastodon elitist" label are the ones that are either aggressively demanding, condescending or making harsh accusations of deliberate malicious ableism over missing alt text.

Show threadLiteralGrillSep 4, 2023

@beeoproblem @Catwoman69y2k Let's legit ask a question, why doesn't Mastodon simply require all posts have alt-text? It'd solve the whole problem!

The reality is folks are angry a the implicit implication that people needing "convenience" to grow the platform is more important than having disabled voices on the platform. Which is where the anger and aggression part comes from.

People wouldn't "forget" if they couldn't forget. Older websites required alt-text while uploading pictures, I remember the days of those forums when the net loaded slowly and it was a curb cut effect that helped everyone.

We should go back to that! If everyone has to use alt-text, we've solved this whole problem.

Edit: I've gotten some responses explaining that programming this might actually not be possible and of course, there are folks who can't create alt-text that need to be thought of too. But even letting other users submit alt-text for photos for users to approve would be a cool start!

Show threadKat the LeopardessSep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I do recall some posts discussing use cases where people might not (be able) to use alt tags (but it's not a matter of ill or exclusionary intent) . I can't pull up these toots just now

if all Fedi apps forced an alt tag to be applied before it would post... would that be going too far by forcing it?

Show threadLiteralGrillSep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k @beeoproblem Yeah, I've seen folks saying that today too, it does sadly create another issue.

I've also been told that programming required alt-text due to the federated nature of Mastodon actually causes issues too from the boring programming side of things.

Maybe we can find a way to have a feature so folks can suggest alt-text for users?

Show threadKat the LeopardessSep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I believe that has been discussed as well. Trying to find the post about it.

It was basically a method similar to the "unroll" trigger word that people did on Twitter.

Show threadYingtaiSep 4, 2023

@Catwoman69y2k @literalgrill @beeoproblem

I think this is the thread you were looking for, where @bright_helpings (who is blind) talked about how he challenged hardline stances on alt text. Also ways to request help in writing image descriptions (a preferred term because they don't have to be in the alt text). https://mspsocial.net/@bright_helpings/108219848954173037

Old Erik 👿 (@[email protected])

I'm seeing a lot of proclamations that there should be no exceptions to describing your images or that there's no reason to interact with any that aren't described. I know these mean well, but they are themselves ableist. Disabled people know that access needs can clash. I benefit from described images, but I know some people struggle to write them because of their own disabilities. And that's okay! The culture of image descriptions is great here but it should never be absolutist.

MSP Social.net
Show threadKat the LeopardessSep 4, 2023

@literalgrill @beeoproblem I see 2 hashtags that might be related to this convo

ALT4me and ALT4you

Also: https://social.beaware.live/@BeAware/110905359767829265

BeAware :fediverse: (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image Challenge for all you #Alttext worshipers who don't understand the skill it takes to accurately describe something. Here, describe this to a blind person without having a stroke. Please and thank you. Most of you are really making people feel bad for something that is genuinely difficult to do in some situations. For lots of #neurodivergent people, you may as well be asking them to fix world hunger. It's just not possible for us. Asking someone to accurately describe something like this is insanity, but having no alt text doesn't devalue the work or the human behind it that can't do fancy words.

BeAware
Show threadBee O'Problem Sep 4, 2023
@literalgrill @Catwoman69y2k IMO letting other folks provide alt text would be a great feature
Show threadYingtaiSep 4, 2023

@beeoproblem I wish I could agree that the answer is writing alt text for other people, but I do a fair amount of that, and usually they ignore it. No edit, likes or thanks.

I think they see it as a passive-aggressive hint.

Once in a blue moon someone will write back gratefully, but those are usually the people who had minimal alt text to begin with.

Here's my latest, if you're curious. It's for video, but that can and should have alt text too. https://zirk.us/@yingtai/110994174972559047

@literalgrill

Yingtai (@[email protected])

Content warning: Video description

zirkus
Show threadYingtaiSep 4, 2023
@beeoproblem I should add that the reason I continue to write image descriptions for other people is that I have followers who are screenreader users. If I boost something which doesn't have alt text, then I boost my description along with it. When we get quote toots, I'll switch to that format. @literalgrill