Mastodawn

myrmepropagandist

If the idea of violent protests don't make you at least little scared I wonder how well you know history. At the same time, real change almost never happens without people putting their bodies on the line.

The right understands this far better than your average liberal/moderate. To be a moderate is to trust that existing systems will (mostly) work.

If those systems fail? What then? To even consider this is moderate treason.

(Cartoons by Mattie Lubchansky https://thenib.com/author/mattie-lubchansky/ )

Mattie Lubchansky

Mattie Lubchansky is the Associate Editor of the Nib and a cartoonist and illustrator living in Queens, NY. Their work has appeared in New York Magazine, VICE, Eater, Mad Magazine, Gothamist, The Toast, The Hairpin, Brooklyn Magazine, and their long-running webcomic Please Listen to Me. They are the co-author of Dad Magazine (Quirk, 2016) and the author of the Antifa Supersoldier Cookbook (Silver Sprocket, 2021).

The Nib

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

It's *not* a good thing that one side has all the guns.

I saw a photo a few days ago. I think it was titled. "Vermont politics" -- in it a scruffy cheerful white man held a gun and a sign. The sign said something like "Respect my trans daughter and my right to bear arms!" (did anyone else see this?)

Some people were annoyed at the guy for being so into guns. I could only think how glad I was for his daughter that he had one.

llewelly Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird
I think the hard right in the USA is trying to sucker the left into gun fight. And the fact is, however much the right wing militias have a reputation for being poorly trained, it's much better than no training at all, and far more numerous. If the left takes the right's bait on guns, the left will be wiped out.

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

Probably true. Maybe.

llewelly Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird
as for the whole personal defense thing, I grew up with a very pro-hunting grandfather, who had an entire wall full of Louis L'amour and other western novels (I read probably a third of them), and at an emotional level, I do grasp why people feel guns are important. But the reality is different: Guns are far more likely to kill a member of the household, than an invader.

chidi_anagonye Aug 16, 2023

@llewelly @futurebird

That is making some broad assumptions that there are no left leaning military veterans or LEOs that are trained and experienced.

brocolie (tots not a vampire)Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird This is completely absurd.

That daughter is more at risk due to guns being in her household, than any chance of their presence ever protecting her.

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

Maybe.

apophis Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @brocolie fwiw every reply i've faved on this thread i did so in agreement

especially the ones that directly contradict each other

apophis Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @brocolie an armed insurrection by the left is a complete fucking joke no matter how you look at it

but on an individual level we're dealing with homicidal creeps - *privileged* homicidal creeps - who very likely do not have the integrity or fortitude or incentive to commit if faced with a target that they know or believe can shoot back

chidi_anagonye Aug 16, 2023

@brocolie @futurebird

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they have a few known enemies. I don't own weapons because of a Nazi in the bushes, burglars, etc. I own them because anyone can make an enemy that wants to do them harm out of no fault of their own. Think suing somebody because they were drunk and injured you in a wreck. You went on a date with someone with an abusive and jealous ex. Your better business drove their crappy business out of business.

brocolie (tots not a vampire)Aug 17, 2023

@chidi_anagonye @futurebird and why is it natural for you to seek to own a gun for those reasons?

those happen everywhere, but people don't just jump to "I need to be able to kill people at the pull of a trigger" because of them

much less just the hypothetical that it *could* happen to anyone, and isn't even happening

chidi_anagonye Aug 17, 2023

@brocolie @futurebird

In my case, it hasn't always been hypothetical. I'm not going to dox myself with details, but it involved a jealous ex with a violent criminal record situation.

I'm not saying guns should be a free for all with no restrictions or gun violence isn't a problem, but things aren't black and white. Saying owning guns is good or bad in the situation that prompted this discussion isn't something anybody here can do because we don't know the details.

Mab Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird My feelings have shifted on this issue as well. With the rise of white supremacists and their ilk, it isn't an abstract concept anymore, it is about defending loved ones and community in real life/time. I doubt I will ever touch a gun, but I can't take a unilateral stance against it.

cat static 🇺🇸🇺🇦Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird It's a myth anyway. Urban centers are murdervilles but also, defenseless against the ammosexual blockade.

L
O
L

#unity #solidarity #democracy

laurent oget Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird where does the udea that firearms make anybody safer come from, besides NRA propaganda. If anything, carrying a firearm allows your antagonist to shoot you with much less legal consequences.

AGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird I read something on Twitter a while ago that stuck with me: "The neat thing about going far enough left is that you get your guns back."

RowinSpeez Aug 17, 2023

@futurebird one side doesn’t have all the guns though, just like one side doesn’t contain all the religious people.

PeoriaBummer Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird the “real change” resulting from political violence is most often authoritarianism, and the people victimized are the marginalized, so you’d better have a specific plan and be totally committed and be VERY SURE it’s necessary before you even consider that path

Nick's world Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird Yeah, but how will it be? What, are people going to shoot up government buildings? Are we going to have another uni-bomber? Seriously. If people get armed and start protesting, its going to be a world of pain for normal folks just trying to live their lives peacefully. This will not go over well and the government will arrest those who cause discord in a violent manner. It's not the 1800's. It's 2023. We don't have to turn into savages to prove a point plus, in racial riots specifically, Black people don't attack other communities, they destroy their own first. It's happened so many times where people will loot Black-owned stores and businesses and start setting their own people on fire and for what, to prove a point? It just doesn't make sense. Sure, you get news coverage and then what, it just means people will fight against you, not work with you politically. I believe in the Dr. King way of doing things. Violence never solves problems.

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

What I expect and have started to see from the right is a resurgence of extra-judicial "justice" that is: lynchings. There is a blurry fringe in law enforcement, people armed and ready to take matters into their own hands. Would they harm fewer people if there were a chance their targets might be armed? I don't know.

I just can easily see it going in this direction. I don't know how to stop it.

Nick's world Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird See, the problem is figuring out how to stop this nonsense. It's not that i completely disagree with you. yes, action is required, but we can't just have people going around causing problems for communities when they weren't involved. We also don't need people potentially getting hurt or killed because of all this tention. I believe in civilized discussion in fact, I believe that right now, we're having a civilized discussion. I don't believe in the modern us vs. them mentality. I believe in common ground and that people who disagree can still be friendly towards each other or even friends themselves. Call me old school but those are my views. We just need to talk and have real discussions about these heavy issues and come up with a consensous.

Balerion Aug 16, 2023

@gocu54 @futurebird Get Dr. King's name out of your mouth. You have no idea what he stood for. You've uncritically swallowed the whitewashed version of him we're taught by liberal institutions & are ignoring that he was considered dangerous & radical during his time.

But even if you accept that King was categorically against all violence, THEY STILL KILLED HIM. If white supremacists are willing to kill even the most peaceful protesters, what option does that leave black people? Are they supposed to just stand back & be slaughtered? Accept that they all have to be martyrs for the cause? Fuck that.

Also, the civil rights movement wasn't JUST won by King and his ilk. More militant actors, like Malcolm X & the Black Panthers, were instrumental in winning civil rights reforms.

Lastly, as others pointed out, "they destroy their own" is a racist myth. Sure, some black-owned businesses get caught in the crossfire during riots, but who do you think the real targets are? Corporations who have exploited the poor & POC for generations. But that aside, black business owners are also capitalists, and being black does not absolve them of exploiting others. I REALLY don't care if an occasional black-owned business gets looted while the community takes revenge on their exploiters.

DunaBlue2 Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 by any means necessary, someone said.

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

" In racial riots specifically, Black people don't attack other communities, they destroy their own first "

Only if you have a remarkably short memory of what a "race riot" in the US even is.

Race riots have for most of our history been primarily about attacking communities.

Not just property damage or petty theft. It's remarkable that the actions of a few dozen black teens breaking windows have totally obscured what the words "race riot" once meant.

Alistair Davidson Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 as a foreigner it took me years of hearing "race riot" in American media before I realised it meant "pogrom"

Rachel Rawlings Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 I learned the term as a kid in the 70s hearing about the North Philadelphia, Watts, Detroit, etc. riots in the 1960s. It wasn't until much, MUCH later that I learned about Rosewood, Wilmington, and Tulsa. History was being refocused before we were born.

Callalily@tootcat💙💛😺Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54
I remember the 67 Detroit riot, I was just a kid. Our family lived in the projects. I read it was caused by a raid on a blind pig bar by the police.

Chris Real Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 I was a child during the '67 riot in Detroit. I remember a local being interviewed who said they burned down their neighborhood because they DIDN'T own it—the major businesses were owned by white people who lived in the suburbs.

The city was prosperous, but the black community was only making money from illegal businesses like 'after-hours' clubs (called 'blind pigs' because the cops would look the other way if they were paid off).

When the cops raided one anyway, the frustration created a nothing-to-lose despair to many.

"They destroy their own" is a myth created by white racists.

Tigerfort Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54

It's almost as though there's a huge media machine pushing the false version of the narrative, with the active support of white supremacists and the passive acquiescence of centrists who don't want to admit there's a systematic problem that benefits them.
Still, I'm sure there's no way our entire media ecosystem could have been co-opted by a handful of fascist billionaires, right?

[Checks news ownership]
Oh. Oh no...

Ben Rosengart Aug 17, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 most race riots are done by white people

Ben Rosengart Aug 17, 2023

@futurebird @gocu54 (I know you know this and don’t mean to imply otherwise)

Rhinos Worry Me has moved Aug 16, 2023

@gocu54 @futurebird

Re: "I believe in the Dr. King way of doing things. Violence never solves problems."

But in Dr. King's own words:

"I am no doctrinaire pacifist. I have tried to embrace a realistic pacifism... violence exercised in self-defense, which all societies, from the most primitive to the most cultured and civilized, accept as moral and legal... the principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi, who sanctioned it for those unable to master pure nonviolence."
- Dr. M.L. King Jr.

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦Aug 16, 2023

@gocu54 nick, you're a racist gobshite. i'm telling you that just in case you're not aware.

Nick's world Aug 16, 2023

@mawhrin What makes you say this? you can't really talk shit without context. How about putting away your weapons and texting me like a real adult?

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦Aug 16, 2023

@gocu54 i just did. (and unabomber's name was kaczyński.)

Nick's world Aug 16, 2023

@mawhrin yes, I know this. I just didn't know how to spell it. Anyway man, just calm down and we can have an actual conversation. Come on. What's calling me names gonna do? It's not gonna prove a point is it? It's not going to make you worthy to be heard. It's only going to make others see you as someone who's words have no real meaning because you have no case to make.

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦Aug 16, 2023

@gocu54 i made my case. and you chose to be more offended by being qualified as a racist and a gobshite than by making racist remarks (which you made, that's why i called you racist.)

your ignorance is a choice, own it.

Nick's world Aug 16, 2023

@mawhrin How am I a racist person? I made no remarks of the sort. Without real evidence, you have no case. I love all people, no matter the color. I always have and that will never change. Hell, I can't even tell color physically anyway so I really don't care if I'm being honest.

Jonathan Kamens 86 47 Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird I don't know if things are going to get to the point that violence against the government is the only way to restore civil society; I hope not.
I do know that we long ago passed the point where millions of people should have been marching in the streets and shutting the country down. Like in France and Israel, to name two recent examples. Unfortunately, instead we have bread and circuses.

Artemis Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird
I have an EX boyfriend who told me (after he was already my ex) that the way MLK, Jesus, and Gandhi (itself a fascinating list) would solve racism and other bigotry today is sit down and talk to the racists and just show them that racism is bad. In his eyes I was so hateful because I was mean to racists.

I was like...um... Let's set aside the biblical character for a second, but uh... What exactly is it you think those other two even DID?

Scott Matter Aug 16, 2023

Whose bodies does the right imagine putting on the line? At the moment, it seems to be trans people, PoC, and pregnant teenage girls, but not really their own?

@futurebird >1799

Louis XVI had been dead for 6 years by that point, and had effectively given up all power too a few years before that as he refused to deploy the army to fire on the French people.

The French Revolution was led by some of the richest people in France, many of whom would directly benefit from the kings demise. Whoever drew these images is a historically inept fool who shouldn’t be taken seriously.

If you’re going to contribute centuries old lies, misrepresentations, and propaganda, at least have the decency to get the year correct.

myrmepropagandist Aug 16, 2023

I think part of the joke is that's not how any of these events happened?

Chris Real Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @Arcana It's only "revolution" if it's after 1799, and includes the Reign of Terror

Otherwise, it's sparkling insurrection . . .

(This is a joke too😋)

Diego Aug 16, 2023

@_chris_real @futurebird @Arcana In 1799 the Reign of Terror was also half a decade in the past, France was ruled by an oligarchy soon to be overturned in a coup by Napoleon, who would later crown himself Emperor. Idk if there are simple lessons to be drawn here, ironic or otherwise.

Diego Aug 16, 2023

@_chris_real @futurebird @Arcana Tbh the French Revolution wasn't even that violent in the beginning in 1789-92. The King's authority broke down because he was bankrupt, and he had to share power in some way to regain legitimacy. The mass killings only started when all-out European war broke out, and the King turned out to be a traitor.

It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine what would've happened if France had managed to remain at peace for longer and stabilise...

Chris Real Aug 16, 2023

@DiegoBeghin @futurebird @Arcana I think you are missing the point.

- A bully will only leave you alone if they know you are willing and prepared to fight them.

- Naked power will only concede power when they have no choice about it.

In these tumultuous times without universally accepted truths, one must be prepared to defend one's convictions, on many levels—and simply hope that 'the good will out'.

Diego Aug 16, 2023

@_chris_real @futurebird @Arcana Nah, too abstract, I'd rather discuss specifics.

@futurebird yes, but that’s the thing. It’s joking about the king gleefully abdicating, and that’s basically true. The king did give up his power. For three years and they still decided to kill him, in part for financial and inheritance reasons.

The date is wrong and the history they portray sarcastically is actually close to the truth. It’s like the whole Storming of the Bastille being portrayed as some great liberation moment when it reality it was a place with about 7 prisoners, who weren’t there for political reasons, defended by about 80 disabled veterans, with the storming led by supporters of the richest man in France.

After the commander of the Bastille surrender and spare lives rather than holding out violently against the mob for a long time as they had the means to do, the mob bludgeoned him to death in the street.

@futurebird also funny that it mentions the Haitian Revolution in the previous image as the Royalists on Haiti were allied with the Africans in the uprising.

One of the charges brought against Louis XVI at his trial accusing him of being a traitor was that he was formenting counter revolution in the colonies

OpenDNA⚙️Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird @Arcana The joke is that the "liberal democracy" that started in 1799 was Napoleon Bonaparte's dictatorship.

Richard Aug 16, 2023

@Arcana @futurebird

FFS, these are clearly ironic examples of fictional alternative histories that wouldn't have happened if the preceding violent revolutions failed to take place. And this is clear from the context of the post they are attached to. And the OP did not even create these cartoons. What is wrong with people?

@richard_merren @futurebird don’t defend bad history

Donty Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird
It is worrying what we need to sacrifice & when, to counter the right.

Despite their noise & vigour they're a fairly small % of our society, 'we' outnumber them. Yet we're without the heart for physical confrontation, which we see as weakness.

In the 70s, British National Front was trying to be ascendent & The ANL & others met them on the streets.

Even before that was:
https://www.eastlondonhistory.co.uk/battle-of-cable-street-east-london/

That's all less likely now & probably illegal under new British protest laws.

The Battle of Cable Street, East London

In the 1930s, one narrow East London street, Cable Street, became the location for one of the most famous anti-fascist clashes in England’s long history.

East London History:

your_huckleberry Aug 16, 2023

@futurebird Wasn't MLK all about non-violent protest, which changed the world in a good way? Weren't the the other violent revolutions really bad for lots of people? I seem to remember the French revolution ending badly for all involved. Maybe I'm missing the joke.

Joe ❌👑Aug 16, 2023

@your_huckleberry @futurebird MLK put his body on the line, as did so many others in the movement, and he was not a fan of moderates (see his letter from Birmingham jail).

your_huckleberry Aug 16, 2023

@not2b @futurebird you can be nonviolent and take action to change the world at the same time.

mcc Aug 16, 2023

@your_huckleberry @futurebird What I'd guess the cartoonist's thought was, is although MLK had strong ideological commitment to nonviolence, he and his methods were not *considered* nonviolent by the targets of his protests at the time. Mattie's cartoon is from 2015, and the BLM protests then were similarly denounced as violent regardless of how peaceful they were… The point is probs to emphasize no level of politeness is ever enough for bad faith observers.

There's this 1967 political cartoon…