Nick Largent
Technology ConnectionsI'm ripping the band-aid off.
Tesla won the plug war - and that's good news!
A surprisingly good series of events have unfolded, and this video is my mea culpa. Also, Sorry, John!Links 'n' stuffHere's a playlist to all of my EV-relate...
YouTube
Rev. GothAlice@TechConnectify :crow intensifies: 😀
Paarth 
@TechConnectify my hackles were raised as soon as I saw that title: I'm prepared for some hot takes/spicy comment sections.
Chris Ferguson@TechConnectify You've always have the most reasonable arguments and positions on this issue I've found...So I look forward to watching this one shortly. Before I watch, I just want to say my biggest concern was Tesla controlling the standard despite allowing others to use it for free. But I hear the SAE is taking over the standard, so it shouldn't be an issue now which makes me feel much better about it.
@ChrisFerguson Yes, I am feeling similarly.
However, I reserve the right to shout "I told you so" if this falls apart. I will shout it from the rooftops with the most devilish delight in my voice!
But, I don't think that will happen.
Devourer@TechConnectify this is gonna get very spicy in the comments ain't it
@Devourer_ITA Probably, but most of my angst is directed towards Electrify America.
The only real Tesla-contrarian take I express is that plug-and-charge is, imo, nothing special. Just use a damn payment card reader.
AGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸@TechConnectify @Devourer_ITA I usually pay for gas using my watch, electricity should be the same tbh. It's not like you have to get your wallet out to pay for stuff these days!
Will@TechConnectify @Devourer_ITA It does look like the proposed rule for NEVI funding will require card payments.
🔻 aetios 🇪🇺@TechConnectify someone has to make a plug I guess
Waterluvian@TechConnectify I see format wars all the time in software dev. My general feeling is that while there’s always valid merits for various options and perhaps one option is clearly superior, by a colossally wide margin the most important thing is getting everyone to settle on one format.
And in that way I don’t care so much about who wins, just that there’s a clear winner and we’re coalescing towards one format.
Atz@waterluvian @TechConnectify
"A bad standard is better than no standard"
With some exceptions...
But I absolutely agree. Especially on something like this where the end user's main pain point won't be the myriad pros and cons of each standard but rather just finding somewhere to charge.
KDDLB@TechConnectify disappointed
@kevin So long as things pan out as it looks like they will, we can have a best-of-both-worlds reality, here.
I'm only annoyed because other automakers caved, but they only caved because NACS will no longer be in Tesla's control.
Jason@TechConnectify this is a good video (I am 2minutes). Props.
@TechConnectify also that Amtrak shirt is wonderful.
Arctic (back up - see pinned)@TechConnectify I hate Tesla as much as the next guy but if this really is now an open standard I think it is in general a good thing. I don't want to be naive but I don't think all the big auto makers would jump on it if Tesla still had every ounce of control.
@arctic It's the SAE taking it on that makes me most at peace.
I wouldn't believe Tesla's "we're opening it up to the world" otherwise
@TechConnectify yeah the fact that it is actually going to a standard organization makes it hard for them to just change their mind
@TechConnectify a while back I expressed similar thoughts on social media and some Tesla fan came into my mentions to be a prick about it. I was eating crow and agreeing with them. 😶
So my opinions on Tesla fans hasn't changed.
Sarun Intaralawan@TechConnectify Re: the EV charging station inside gas stations, it's already been happening over here (Thailand). I'll probably can drive out tomorrow and get a shot of gas station-EV charging combo.
Keiko@TechConnectify I realize this is an old article, but a slight glimmer of hope Tesla might to V2X sometime? https://electrek.co/2020/05/19/tesla-bidirectional-charging-ready-game-changing-features/
monorail times@TechConnectify sigh yeah, I agree as well
Ben S.@TechConnectify I'm 100% with you on payment opinions. I've had an EV for 5 years and have never charged it away from home because of payment friction concerns, and I think plug-n-charge potentially does way more to add security/privacy/competition concerns than it does to solve friction ones.
Honestly, anyone who cares about EV's becoming the norm should be advocating for the EV charging experience to be as similar as possible to the gas/petrol filling one. Make adoption easy and familiar FFS!
Studio 8502 
@HunterZ @TechConnectify A possibly silly idea:
What if we engineered a new chemical, a liquid which could retain an electric charge, and you "recharged" by connecting a dual-hose thing to your "gas tank" that sucks out the spent liquid and pumps in charged, and you only pay for the charge on the new liquid because they can charge and re-sell the old? Would that be familiar enough?
Dean Styles@mos_8502 @HunterZ @TechConnectify Could vanadium do that job? Vanadium redox flow batteries are a thing. Although honestly at this point BEVs are becoming the standard worldwide, at least for vehicle applications.
Tvorsk@mos_8502 @HunterZ @TechConnectify So years ago on an obscure forum some guy was looking for people to interview and other info regarding the G+W Zinc Chloride project.
I've never seen the documentary if it got made, but people shared this ad, a bunch of photos (including some prototype cars), some background how new boss killed it because it was pet project of previous', and of course conspiracy theories.
I still don't know if it's all an elaborate troll or not but if not, this system would be pumpable, though I think only when deeply discharged (little remaining buildup on electrodes).
Electric Vehicle Battery: 35 Years Ahead of Its Time!
@mos_8502 @HunterZ @TechConnectify
Mmm... okay, caffeine kicked in
Still on mobile so I actually didn't have a chance to rewatch that vid and remind myself of their claims but if I remember the principle correctly and "charged" means there is a crystalline (?) deposit on the electrodes which returns to the liquid while discharging, then obviously just replacing a
"discharged" (dissolved) liquid with "charged" liquid would actually result in two Not-Haves (active component not on electrodes, not in liquid) so that wouldn't work
You'd need to swap the whole battery unit all the same :(
@mos_8502 @HunterZ @TechConnectify
Ah well, sorry for wasting your time
I did remember another anecdote from the forum stories though, so just to amuse you - supposedly some... "designer" / manager - not the executive who supposedly killed it later, someone lower on tle ladder - was super obsessed about making all this stuff square and boxy because that was more techy and futuristic and most importantly already depicted that way in concept art by the graphics team
So cylindrical pressure vessels were verboten and only after months of stress cracks and such he agreed to a cylinder inside a boxy outer shell
Luficarius van Ratspeed@TechConnectify But do we get to blow on the cartridge?
aSyd🪿@TechConnectify While I completely agree that plug and charge is not the way to go, putting a regular card payment terminal in charge stations isn't as easy as you might think it is. (Full disclosure: Developing payment stuff for use in charge infrastructure is what pays my bills)
In the video you say that just an nfc reader would be enough to facilitate apple pay (and similar) payments, but that's not the case. Anything that interfaces with credit cards (which includes apple pay at al) has to be certified through and through and there's only a handful of companies that have those certifications. Adding a payment terminal to a charge station can easily cost upwards of 1000$ per EVSE (because most solutions out there can't have one payment terminal for multiple charge stations)
The EU is going to be mandating all charge stations to have a credit card payment terminal within the next few years despite that, which will lead to a much more streamlined experience, even if it slows down the building of new charging infrastructure a bit due to the increased cost. Maybe the US could try this "regulation" thing too at some point.
Regarding NACS being the better plug, I feel like that's a bit of a stretch tbh. While it is definitely sleeker, as someone whose work touches on software that car manufacturers build and sell more than most people's, I do not trust them to implement the switching between A/C and D/C cleanly. Especially not with adaptors in mind. I am pretty certain that this will lead to fires down the line. Using the same pins for this just makes me nervous, especially considering how small they seem to be and that the one you showed in your video seems heavily rusted
In the video you say that just an nfc reader would be enough to facilitate apple pay (and similar) payments, but that's not the case. Anything that interfaces with credit cards (which includes apple pay at al) has to be certified through and through and there's only a handful of companies that have those certifications. Adding a payment terminal to a charge station can easily cost upwards of 1000$ per EVSE (because most solutions out there can't have one payment terminal for multiple charge stations)
The EU is going to be mandating all charge stations to have a credit card payment terminal within the next few years despite that, which will lead to a much more streamlined experience, even if it slows down the building of new charging infrastructure a bit due to the increased cost. Maybe the US could try this "regulation" thing too at some point.
Regarding NACS being the better plug, I feel like that's a bit of a stretch tbh. While it is definitely sleeker, as someone whose work touches on software that car manufacturers build and sell more than most people's, I do not trust them to implement the switching between A/C and D/C cleanly. Especially not with adaptors in mind. I am pretty certain that this will lead to fires down the line. Using the same pins for this just makes me nervous, especially considering how small they seem to be and that the one you showed in your video seems heavily rusted
@dysphoricunicorn Even if it costs $1000 per charger, DC fast chargers are $50,000+ machines. Nobody should be crying about that, frankly.
Re: sharing the pins, it used to make me nervous. But I can't deny that Tesla has been doing it from the start and so far things have gone well.
I think *CCS2* could be argued as technically superior to NACS. But CCS1 with its godawful latch... yeah. It's bad.
@dysphoricunicorn Also, yes the rust on that connector concerns me, but personally I chalk that up to that likely being a 5+ year old EVSE combined with Tesla's rather bad friction fit method of holding the plug in-place. They fall out rather easily from Tesla holsters, it seems, and since that was in a hotel parking lot, I'll bet that plug has landed in a salty pile of snow several times in its life.
I don't consider that a flaw of the connector, though, just Tesla's holster.
@TechConnectify given, most of our customers deploy A/C chargers where that extra cost is significant compared to the cost of the charger itself if you're gonna spend that much, it really doesn't matter
For D/C chargers, the main issue seems to be that there just aren't that many unattended payment terminals for charge stations available (in europe) while in the US I would assume they just prefer having you install a crappy app that can also collect your personal data to sell.
I didn't know that the latch worked differently on T2 CCS chargers, although I did wonder about it being this awful because I don't remember having any issues with that part the one time I plugged a car into a charger (I don't actually have a driver's license)
For D/C chargers, the main issue seems to be that there just aren't that many unattended payment terminals for charge stations available (in europe) while in the US I would assume they just prefer having you install a crappy app that can also collect your personal data to sell.
I didn't know that the latch worked differently on T2 CCS chargers, although I did wonder about it being this awful because I don't remember having any issues with that part the one time I plugged a car into a charger (I don't actually have a driver's license)
Stoneskipper32@TechConnectify great video, great info - pure Technology Connections
Jamie Swedler@TechConnectify I drive from Seattle to BC several times a year, and saw On The Run convenience stores are installing DC fast chargers in BC and AB. They are free* for the introductory period.
*Must have their app** to activate the charger.
**Must be a Canadian resident to sign up for (or even download) the app. Apparently you can ask the attendant to activate the charger, but they're just off my list completely.
I agree that payment is the worst part and a new connector won't fix it.
Michal Chodzikiewicz@TechConnectify for me, EU citizen, half of your content is like "oh no, again... he's not gonna tell me it's not relevant for me, ain't he?" and then "wtf... I need to know it all about your funky US standards!"
TSSaloic@TechConnectify Maybe having Charge and Pay as part of a more public L2 infrastructure plan, and a fall back for DC charging sounds good. (In case attendant is unavailable, or the payment system is down but there's still electricity)
More places like Buc-ee's doing EV charging is a great thing. 
Sinalk 
@TechConnectify you talked about canopies for charging stations, in germany there are some places that have started installing them and also using their roofs for Solar panels which also reduces energy costs significantly for carriers
you might want to look into the "Seed and Greet Ladepark" Kreuz Hilden funnily enough it exactly resembles your description of future stations.
https://www.tesvolt.com/en/press/europes-largest-e-car-charging-station-opens.html (sadly the only source i can find in english)
you might want to look into the "Seed and Greet Ladepark" Kreuz Hilden funnily enough it exactly resembles your description of future stations.
https://www.tesvolt.com/en/press/europes-largest-e-car-charging-station-opens.html (sadly the only source i can find in english)
Europe's Largest E-Car Charging Station Opens
<p><strong>Wittenberg/Germany, 8 October 2020 – Europe’s largest charging park for electric vehicles will open on Friday at the Kreuz Hilden junction. The first construction phase of the “Seed & Greet” charging park is complete and 44 charging stations from various operators are ready, including Europe’s fastest charging stations from Tesla and Fastned. All the charging stations are supplied with 100-percent green power from sources including a large photovoltaic installation on the charging park’s carports and the high-performance storage devices from the German manufacturer Tesvolt.</strong></p> <p>Europe’s largest charging park project, covering 12,000 square metres, is located at the Kreuz Hilden junction between the A3 and A46 motorways in Germany. The first construction phase involved completing half of the planned 114 charging stations. The current 28 fast charging stations from Fastned and Tesla – including 12 superchargers of the latest V3 generation – can be used to charge electric vehicles with charging power of up to 250 kilowatts (kW). The operator of the charging park will also be providing a further four public charging stations with charging power of up to 22 kW and twelve stations for staff and tenants. While waiting for their cars to charge, motorists will now also be able to use the café-bistro with organic bakery that covers 150 square metres.</p> <p><strong>Potential hurdles due to Renewable Energy Sources Act (EEG) amendment</strong></p> <p>“I hope the EEG amendment doesn’t disrupt projects like these in the future. Lots of people have approached me about their interest in setting up similar projects. If the EEG amendment places further restrictions on self-consumption, however, any such projects would be stifled,” says Roland Schüren, master organic baker and operator of the charging park. “Not only do Germany and Europe need more e-mobility, they particularly need more e-mobility with electricity from renewable energies.”</p> <p><strong>Europe’s most innovative charging park</strong></p> <p>“Seed & Greet is currently not only the largest, but is also the most innovative charging park. A sophisticated energy concept with heat recovery, rainwater and process water harvesting, the organic bakery and the wooden frame construction of the park, the planned vertical farming – all of this goes towards making Seed & Greet a flagship project,” says Simon Schandert, co-founder and CTO of Tesvolt. “We are extremely proud to be part of this project with our storage systems.”</p> <p><strong>Prizewinning storage technology</strong></p> <p>The two battery storage system containers from the German manufacturer Tesvolt store electricity from the currently 336-kilowatt-peak (kWp) photovoltaic installation and two small wind turbines in order to shave the expensive peak loads that occur during the charging of electric vehicles. They also, however, store green electricity from the grid when it is particularly cheap and relieve the utility grid when there is more electricity in the grid than is consumed. Gregor Hinz, energy consultant and technical planner for the project, anticipates that the two storage systems will have paid for themselves in just a few years.</p> <p>“Tesvolt storage systems can be fully charged and discharged rapidly, which is particularly important from a technical perspective for a charging park. In combination with our hourly purchase of energy on the German spot market, this is the perfect symbiosis for optimal management of self-generated energy,” reports Hinz.</p> <p>Hinz had a shortlist of three commercial storage system manufacturers for the charging park project. Tesvolt made the grade because its TPS flex storage container offers plenty of power in a comparatively small space and it is one of the few containers on the market that meet the operator’s high technical requirements. Developed by Tesvolt’s engineers, its intelligent battery control ensures optimal charging and discharging of cells, along with an impressive expected service life of about 30 years. Tesvolt has already received several awards for its innovative ideas and projects.</p> <p><strong>Charging park with vertical farming to be completed in 2022</strong></p> <p>The second construction phase is planned for the end of this year, when all the charging stations will be complete and the solar installation will be expanded to a total power of 700 kWp. The five-storey building complex is scheduled for completion by the end of 2022, offering office space for various tenants alongside the Seed & Greet café-bistro. The vertical greenhouse, covering four storeys and 1,000 square metres, will then be located between the two buildings, housing salad, strawberries and blueberries grown for use at the bakery.</p>
@TechConnectify baby steps in standardization is cool but very long way to go. There is no right to repair laws or standards but that is the main reason I’ll always avoid any EV. I care primarily about quality and longevity personality. I keep and maintain vehicles 10-20 years typically. This electronic stuff I also despise in ice vehicles. I hate electric parking brakes. Electronic stuff costs a fortune to repair. Avoid EV for at least the next 5 years minimum.
Quinn Nelson@TechConnectify You did a fantastic job. I don’t know how it could be done better. That said, we still disagree on plug-and-charge. I think having a payment terminal is a must for those that wish not to trifle with it; however, as someone who lived with plug-and-charge for years and no longer have it, I miss it a lot. Imagine having to authenticate every time you plugged in at home. Many people only charge via DC.
@snazzyq I guess my counterpoint would be that the people that currently rely on DC fast charging and can't charge at home are living the same life that people with gas cars do.
I just can't see plug-and-charge as anything more than a "well that's neat," because if payment /actually worked/ with a simple tap of a card (or a watch if you're into that) it would be a non-issue.
@snazzyq but, thank you for the kind words!
I was really worried about this video, but it looks like I've only bothered the most unreasonable of Tesla stans (like the guy who called my description of it as proprietary "FUD")
Stephen Hackett 
@TechConnectify @snazzyq He’s probably just excited about paying for Twitter Blue
Sam Schmitt@TechConnectify @snazzyq I think in a world where both charger CC terminals and plug-and-charge worked equally reliably, I think over 60% of people would set up plug and charge.
@samcat116 @snazzyq Ehh... I don't know.
It's still pretty rare that I actually see people use Apple or Google Pay in the wild.
And beware; if there's ever a platform to discuss tech issues on that is full of tech-heavy people, it's this one. The crowd here is, uh, not at all representative of the public at large.
@samcat116 @snazzyq Also, if I may toot my own horn, I think my YT audience is way less EV-aware than the average car or EV channel. It's only a small subset of my content.
And in the comments section, it sure looks like "just take my damn credit card" is quite a popular position.
Honestly this is a huge reason why I don't put much value on it. I truly think the public at large doesn't care and just wants what's familiar.
@TechConnectify @snazzyq Hah, I actively avoid places that don’t take Apple Pay, but that is probably my northeast US bias showing through.
And you’re definitely right about the audience here. I think it’s likely somewhere in the middle of us. But I think a lot of people would take some innovation over the gas station dispenser reader if it was an option! If only more of those supported tap to pay/Apple Pay…
Kornel@TechConnectify in the EU where contactless payments have been the norm for years, and Ionity + Fastned are probably bigger than Tesla’s network — I still strongly prefer plug and charge.
Payment auth takes a few seconds (or longer if in the middle of nowhere). Awful software often requires pressing some “ok” button before or after. This feels annoyingly slow, especially when it’s raining and the station doesn’t have a canopy.
penguin42@kornel @TechConnectify It feels like you should merge these; with the car presenting your CC data (or a token for it) to the charger
@penguin42 @TechConnectify There are already standards for it — the car can present a TLS certificate to identify itself.
Hyundai unfortunately doesn't implement this, so the Fastned network recognizes cars by MAC address (yes, the charging cable has an ethernet connection).
@kornel @TechConnectify oh god, they're all going to be hopelessly insecure aren't they.
Benjamin Woodring@TechConnectify @snazzyq A lot of gas stations have been pushing app payments. Wawa (very popular convenience chain in the mid-Atlantic and Florida) restricts their gas discount promotions to app payment to encourage paying that way. My theory on why gas stations (and possibly EV chargers) are pushing this is because they don’t have to worry about credit card skimmers at the pumps if people are paying in the app. Of course contactless also eliminates this risk…so who knows.
Max von Webel@TechConnectify @snazzyq Most people I know don’t even know they can use other providers apps or card. They simply use the card that was provided to them by their car manufacturer and have no idea they have any choice. Those people will be very happy with plug-and-charge as for them the only difference is that they can’t loose the RFID card anymore.
@TechConnectify @snazzyq For me on the other hand paying by debit card directly at the charger would remove a lot of flexibility. How would the charger know it has to get the electricity for me from my tiny 100% regenerative energy provider without the extra information on the RFID card/app?
Mike J👹🐀 🤘🏻@TechConnectify My only complaint was it wasn't an open standard. Now it is.
Ranadok@TechConnectify No bloopers? No closing subtitle jokes? NO SMOOTH JAZZ? What is this, connextras?
Jason, Human, Average 
@TechConnectify
That was a completely reasonable video. Seems like the biggest gain is just getting everyone to a single standard. Not an EV driver yet, but I imagine it's similar to the annoyance of stopping at a random gas station and finding the gas pump doesn't fit my car.
That was a completely reasonable video. Seems like the biggest gain is just getting everyone to a single standard. Not an EV driver yet, but I imagine it's similar to the annoyance of stopping at a random gas station and finding the gas pump doesn't fit my car.
Pop Justy 
@TechConnectify No chargingly smooth jazz?
@TechConnectify I'm not so sure on the 'AC charging to your electric bill' idea, if only because of areas with the choice of dozens of retailers so there's the additional issue of selecting a retailer. Also that on-street micropayments have been a thing for decades so I'm sure we'll see existing parking meter terminals equipped to handle charging.
I'm guessing that before too long in the US all the 350kW CCS plugs will get swapped out for NACS and remaining CCS plugs will only support up to 150kW.
The other challenge with moving to NACS may be imported used vehicles, although that's probably not a big issue in North America. Here in Australia many used EVs have been imported from Japan and I suspect we'll continue to retain Chademo as an option for those vehicles along with CCS2.