Mastodawn

In my 17 years as a software developer, I’ve pulled exactly zero all-nighters.

Don’t let anyone tell you they’re necessary. If you’re thinking of pulling one voluntarily, don’t, and if your boss asks you to pull an all-nighter, quit on the spot.

If you feel that all-nighters are necessary for your job, you have the wrong job. Your own physical and mental health are vastly more important than your employer’s revenue and profit.

Don’t allow capitalists to deprive you of essentials, like sleep.

Josh Wold Jul 26, 2023

@lapcatsoftware 100%. I was made to pull a few all nighters in my twenties at one particular job. Completely ridiculous, unnecessary, ill planned, energy sapping, productivity negative; all for something that wasn’t necessary, made no difference, wasn’t appreciated, and stroked the boss’ ego. I hope I’m never in a situation for such a waste again, and if I am that I’ll point out the insanity of it. Feels like a different life where that happened, and not a good one.

Alex Rosenberg Jul 26, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I've done way too many in my career, especially for companies that prove they don't care about you.

Gen X-Wing Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I’d only do that if I owned a significant portion of the company. Because no company has ever cared about a human.

Jeff Johnson Jul 27, 2023

@breadbin I own 100% of my company, and I wouldn’t do it. ;-)

Gen X-Wing Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Then you must be one of those horrid competent people:)

Working a ton of hours just drains people, for no good. Can’t use one’s brain effectively then. Overtime is insane.

Brendan@TapForms 🇨🇦Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware did all nighters in computer science class in university. Does that count? 😆

Jeff Johnson Jul 27, 2023

@tapforms I pulled a few all-nighters as an undergrad, but that due to my own stupid procrastination.

Ignazio Palmisano Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I did one, once, for an Open Source project I manage. Just to see what it was like. Turned out to be pointless.

Barijaona Ramaholimihaso Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I had unexpected all-nighters once or twice, on massive data migrations. We did not have enough hardware to perform exhaustive testing beforehand.
Anyway, we were able to get some rest, while waiting these batch jobs to end after corrections and restart…

@lapcatsoftware @robert all-nighters were glamourised in a coding summer camp my son did in Years 11 and 12 at University of Sydney. Sponsored by Google, Macquarie Bank and Atlassian, so maybe no great surprise. He’s gotten out of _that_ rat race and is the better for it. He’s more centred and protective of himself than I’ve ever been!

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK Jul 27, 2023

@europlus @lapcatsoftware @robert

Year 11/12? If its same as in UK, a many students are <18 and by UN standards still children, this is also a safeguarding risk. If corporate sponsors handed out cigs and booze at a sixth form disco this would be quickly stopped and folk would likely get arrested - other similarly unhealthy, toxic practices should not be encouraged..

@vfrmedia @lapcatsoftware @robert no booze, drugs or cigarettes, just “let’s do an all nighter with pizza because that’s what happens” - I agree that is also unhealthy.

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK Jul 27, 2023

@europlus @lapcatsoftware @robert to be fair, many of todays teenagers are otherwise very healthy living (compared to my Gen X youth!) and would have shunned anything other than pizza and energy drinks even if they were on offer, but its in young adulthood in the workplace they are at further risk, especially diverted stimulant drugs that are popular with USA techbros and can be used for all nighters (that my generation used more for partying)

@europlus @vfrmedia @lapcatsoftware @robert I did this in college once. I’m sure the staff of the diner we went to that morning thought we were drunk or high on something.

Grant Gould Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware All-nighters are a very effective way to demonstrate that net-negative productivity is in fact possible.
Although reading the comments on all-nighter code afterward is always good for a laugh.

ZpqrtBnk Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware All-nighters are an indicators of how broken your organization is. I did some in my early career when supporting HP’s factory systems, because, well, you •really• want the stale factory and its 1000 idle workers to resume work ASAP. Each time it was treated as a failure of the processes that should have prevented the situation, and analyzed through a post-mortem.

Rick Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware @BenRiceM I pull all-nighters now and again, but not because of deadlines. Just from being in the zone and not wanting to stop.

tuxflo Aug 9, 2023

@JetForMe @lapcatsoftware @BenRiceM yes I wanted write the same. Sometimes you really, really want to get this done. Not because you're forced to just because you like what you're doing.

diesUndDasMitTassen 🇺🇦Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I did it wrong, spent to much time and to much focus on my work last 30 years, also at absourd times. I reget that, but all the hours will never come back. I got fair salary for it, but money can't buy back all those hours.

Layla Low Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Spot on. My observation was that people who stay up all night THINK they are doing brilliant coding, but it falls on someone who sleeps regularly to rework it, if not completely start over.

Adam Fortuna Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I’ve pulled exactly 1 in 25 years.

And that was a release in a data center that required physical hardware changes and downtime.

Kevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware There was an article on the Verge recently where the twitter manager in the sleeping bag photo said "I did that because I wouldn't ask my team to do something I wouldn't do", and it practically had me pulling my hair in frustration.

I find I can't even put into words how disastrously askew that line of thinking is.

Jeff Johnson Jul 27, 2023

@kboyd That’s precisely what I was subtooting. ;-)

Kevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware ah! Sorry for supertooting your subtoot.

tuxflo Aug 9, 2023

@kboyd @lapcatsoftware subception?

Tormod Halvorsen Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware

All-nighters are only OK if the job is done as a planned night shift. In many cases, maintenance work needs to be done at very uncomfortable (for IT) hours, but the team performing that work needs to come in fresh and be properly compensated for this type of shift.

Unplanned outages/incidents can also require extra effort, but for DEV work not yet pushed to PROD, I really don't see how the imagined gains outweigh the risks.

Hans van Zijst Jul 27, 2023

@Jeff Johnson I'm not a sofware developer, but as a system admin I've pulled many, many all-nighters. Not because I had to, or because my boss expected it, but because I was in the flow; getting stuff done, being inspired.

Call it whatever you like; hyperfocus, autism, ADHD or whatever label you like, but doing an all-nighter because you feel like it, is a good thing.

Well, usually, you might want to take into account how sharp you need to be the next day...

Loy Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I've never done this for a company but for a #RoboCup robotics competition. Some other people as well, sometimes alone in their hotel room or something. The all-nighter kinda scolded for it, because you're shit the day after, when the rest of the team needs you as well and their batteries are topped up again while the all-nighter is completely drained. So all in all, it doesn't help.

The free pizza, if at that, is not worth it, not for anyone involved.

Doug Bostrom Jul 27, 2023

@loy @lapcatsoftware

As a former coach for FIRST/FRC robotics, one of the things that ultimately drove me away were game rules that eerily resembled corporate mismanagement, leading to absurd schedules. This struck me as inculcation and normalization for future exploited workers.

That and the Kamen Kult.

Loy Jul 28, 2023

@Doug_Bostrom @lapcatsoftware Doesn't surprise me at at all in for some reason. From the outside, it also seems teams are run a bit like a business in a way as well. Any examples of such rules?

paraic Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I did a few in my 20’s in a toxic work environment and ended up with anxiety disorder

Martijn Faassen has moved Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware
No all nighters here in the last 25+ years either. I was asked to work in the evening once and did it grumpily.

Brains run out of energy and continuing too long is negatively productive almost immediately

Crazy Pony Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware ich bedürchte nur, daß diejenigen die die Sprüche machen, nichts gemeinsam haben mit denjenigen die deinen Rat hören

2¢Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware eh. I did stuff like that 40+ years ago when there was a squeeze on some occasions. I also recall leaving the office midday for hours just because I felt like it. I was loyal while I worked for them, they treated me well. One of the best employment experiences of my life. I eventually quit to start my own company. Amicable all around.

Jorge Stolfi Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware

I won't bore you with the details of a cryptocurrency story, but once someone posted a new release of a cryptographic key pair generator with an "improved" random number generator -- at around 3:00 AM.

You can guess what happened next.

Jorge Stolfi Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware

I don´t recall doing all-nighters when coding (except on those days when I got out of bed at 6 pm). But I pulled several 32-hour or 48-hour days when writing papers to meet conference deadlines.

Couldn't help with that. One cannot resist the urge to "improve" the text until forced by the looming deadline.

Carl Tessier / Plouf Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware This. Software developers pulling an all-nighter are always the result of some form of mismanagement, and the only reasonable answer to being asked to pull one is “no”.

Incident management is a different story, but even then, it's an incident in itself and needs to be prevented by any means possible.

Xer Shadow Tail ☄️🌺🏳️‍⚧️Jul 27, 2023

@lapcatsoftware The only time I pulled them is when it was my hobby project and I was having a fun and exciting time working on it.

Jaycie Jul 28, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Preach it. Xi have long believed that the more important something really is, the deliberate one has to go about doing it. And sleep deprivation might as well be drinking for all it helps.

tshepang Jul 28, 2023

@lapcatsoftware quitting (or refusing to follow a command) is not an option for most people

Micky Jul 28, 2023

@lapcatsoftware the last time I did an all nighter (and all weekender) was during uni. Never again.

There is a romantic sort of camaraderie that comes with an all nighter and sleep deprivation.

The all nighters I had in uni were "fun", self-inflicted, and it was part of my life as a student. Do not ask a professional to do it.

glyn Jul 29, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Agreed. I had a few middle-of-the-night coding sessions in my 39 year career, but those were always on business trips when I woke up 5 hours early due to jet-lag and were always my own choice.

I had a similar response to being asked to be on call. This wasn't part of my contract or what I intended to sign up for, so I politely refused.

"Family first" is a good motto for software development.

glyn Jul 29, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Actually, I wasn't specifically asked to be on call. It was just sort of assumed, without consultation, that the team I was part of would go on call. I guess those who put work stuff on their personal phones -- a no-no in my book -- wondered what the fuss was about.

Sebastian Michaelsen Jul 29, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I’ve done a few but never asked or forced into. I enjoyed them. Working at night with no distractions, in a focus tunnel for several hours can be a rewarding experience.

Matthias Bürcher Jul 30, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I have done some all nighters but never for a company. I consider my own software writing as art, and sometimes I am more inspired when everybody other sleeps.
But I agree, a company has not the right to ask for it. It's not a sustainable business.

@lapcatsoftware @tylersticka completely agree! However I think it’s worth noting that some people don’t have the financial stability or privilege to quit on the spot. Those who can should and those who can’t should seek a new role asap

Tyler Sticka Jul 30, 2023

@DavidDarnes @lapcatsoftware Completely fair point

@tylersticka @lapcatsoftware don’t get me wrong though, working out of my hours in the past has immediately caused me to start job hunting

Megapenguinx Aug 1, 2023

@lapcatsoftware okay but I used to when I was younger for fun and personal projects not because someone was paying me even 😭

Adron 🤘🏻Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware as someone who has pulled all-nighters for my own interest - I fully support what you're saying. If someone asks you to do this for a job it's 100% FUBARed and ridiculous. The toxicity of such an environment, just do yourself a favor and GTFO with haste.

I pulled an all-nighter or two over the years but it was the same reason people get together with friends and drink beer. Or go to a late night music show... etc.

If you're doing out of some *work* obligation fuck that. ✊🏻

Purple Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I once pulled an one-nighter when I was studying, and it was honestly useless. Sleeping would have been far more productive.

Rene 🄲🄰🅅🄰🄲 Schickbauer Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Hmm, in my 30 years, i did pull quite a few all nighters.

Most of the all nighters happened for open source stuff. For some strange reason, when you presenting your stuff at a conference, people seem to expect that you have something to actually present them.

When you've been waiting for the hardware from china for months and only get it 2 days before your scheduled talk and you still need to test test the software on the real thing for the first time, bugs tend to happen...

Tim Kellogg Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware I’ve done them. My current position is that they’re extremely tactical and sacrifice almost everything valuable about the team and product. I guess there’s times when they’re helpful, theoretically, but it’s hard to imagine such a case in practice

Peter Hoffmann Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware but what if you like 'em?

Emelia 👸🏻Aug 7, 2023

@lapcatsoftware @jay_peper I've certainly pulled all nighters, but I'm starting to suspect that partly it was something else (maybe bipolar disorder, though I've not officially been diagnosed yet), I've grown very wary these days of starting work on ideas in case it's mania that's pushing me to work, rather than just energy or motivation or interest.

r-hold Aug 8, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Same! 💯% agree.

Also i want to encourage everyone to join the 4-week-trail. 80% less work, 100% pay. Because being well rested and on your best makes you so much more productive. Once you'll realize it you never want to go back.*

The people wanting to squeeze all the juice out off you and not caring will never realize how short sighted she won't it is.

*Applies to all professions

Jesse Cail Aug 8, 2023

@lapcatsoftware "If you're thinking of pulling one voluntarily, don't.."

Today's favor is tomorrow's requirement.

Meet Eli Aug 8, 2023

@lapcatsoftware Totally agree ! What joy you will have from your work when you see your manager and other members of your team burned out and with puffy eyes ?

Productivity is important, but there's a way to go about it. Pulling all-nighter isn't one.

You can't even deliver a good quality work if you're sleep deprived.