Mastodawn

Travis Romero 🦸‍♂️Jun 28, 2023

Jerry 🦙💝🦙

I feel like I shouldn’t have to say this, but here we are.

If you get into a disagreement with someone here or for whatever reason the person you’re messaging with asks you to disengage, just stop. I’ve been around since the dawn of online arguments and I’ve never seen a person realize the error of their ways because someone was trolling and/or being an asshole to them in the replies.

If someone asks you to stop, stop. If they block you, take a cue from Elsa and Let It Go. Don’t find alternate ways to continue engaging. I’m sure it the parting shot feels good, or you think you have the perfect reply to help them see the reality of a situation, but it isn’t so.

Please, just stop and think: AITA in this situation?

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 28, 2023

That post about disengaging got a LOT of comments. I can’t respond to them all, so doing it here:

There is pretty bright line between holding a politician or other public figure to account for bad policy decisions and harassing someone in the comments section of a website. I don’t know how this can be confusing. I don’t know everything though, so I can’t discount that I’m wrong.

There is a difference between arguing toward a resolution of a disagreement and harassing someone in the comments of a website after they’ve asked for the engagement to stop. The former is how we advance civilization, the latter is YouTube comments. I also feel quite confident that the comments section harassment hasn’t changed someone’s mind to the way of the harasser.

Yes, someone publicly announcing their are blocking you is not the best way to handle things, but that doesn’t make it acceptable to find an alternate means to continue engaging the person, rather it’s a good indication that you really should also block the person and move on with your life.

Yes, I agree that it is ridiculous that some people will post an opinion publicly and then complain that any replies they don’t like are “reply guys”.

Yes, I agree that if someone posts that the sky is blue and you reply that the sky can be gray on cloudy days and a beautiful orange during cloudy sunsets and then immediately reports your post is not appropriate.

It’s really not that hard to be civilized. I do think other social media platforms have primed many people for confrontational engagements.

stn 🇺🇦Jun 28, 2023

@jerry printing and framing this and sending a copy out to every human being with internet access

חנן כהן • Hanan Cohen Jun 28, 2023

@jerry
"stop interacting if you are asked to stop" is one of the rules of our instsnce.

Fritz Adalis Jun 28, 2023

@jerry
Unfortunately dopamine is a hell of a drug.

Rev. GothAlice Jun 28, 2023

@jerry Briefly: always remember that "mute conversation" is available if you just want to disengage yourself from a given conversation. You don't have to mute or block those involved!

Barbara Monaco Jun 28, 2023

@alice @jerry I have been looking for a way to mute conversation on Mastodon. It was possible on Twitter, but here the only way I have found is to mute the participants. I really don't want to do that in some cases. Do you know a better way?

Rev. GothAlice Jun 28, 2023

@Barbramon1 @jerry Here you go. 🙂 Admittedly, I'm using the "advanced interface", but it should still be an option under the standard one.

Pointed at "filter this post" as well, as a potential alternative route to the same thing. Just need to create an empty filter for "ignored posts" to add it to.

Barbara Monaco Jun 28, 2023

@alice @jerry
Thank you! I have never seen that option before. Maybe it's new on my app? 🌞

these machines will destroy US.Jun 28, 2023

@jerry I think the biggest problem is when the line is crossed from the topic being discussed to directly insulting the person. Unfortunately we live in a time where if you can’t soundly win an argument or discussion you go for insults. Media is telling us this is OK, politicians are doing it. It’s not OK. It’s childish and uncivil. Let’s be better.

Mr. Mustache Jun 28, 2023

@cienmilojos @jerry

My only codicil is if you aren’t trying to debate them because they are a bad actor of some variety, instead you are showing observers that said individual can be stood up to or you are countering their disinformation.

The internet has proven that we cannot afford nor allow bad actors to spread hate or disinformation unchallenged. Said individuals have a vested interest in NOT being publicly challenged or humiliated. So sometimes you HAVE to be uncivil.

these machines will destroy US.Jun 28, 2023

@mstrmustache @jerry a swift boot off the platform works for this. Remove the soapbox and remove the power. Really not interested in the collateral damage or all the noise caused by that type of event. That’s just me though.

Mr. Mustache Jun 28, 2023

@cienmilojos @jerry

Oh a swift boot is one of the better answers but that requires someone with the power and the will to exercise it. Lacking that, they must be challenged.

Jeff Atwood Jun 28, 2023

@jerry may I gently introduce you to Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, Incorporated? https://blog.codinghorror.com/civilized-discourse-construction-kit/

Civilized Discourse Construction Kit

Occasionally, startups will ask me for advice. That’s a shame, because I am a terrible person to ask for advice. The conversation usually goes something like this: We’d love to get your expert advice on our thing. I probably don’t use your thing. Even if I tried

Coding Horror

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 29, 2023

@codinghorror they are some super insightful comments in that post

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@jerry we're really trying. Democracy needs to exist on the web, as well as the real world. We fight for the user.

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 29, 2023

@codinghorror I am going to have to give Discourse a shot

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@jerry don't hesitate to reach out to me directly with any feedback. We listen. Well, to the sane feedback, at least. 😉

Michael K Johnson Jun 29, 2023

@jerry @codinghorror I have been running a Discourse instance since right before Google+ disappeared. The tools for encouraging constructive and civilized construction work. Of course, you have to use them, but they are pretty richly functional. They do help build community, I believe.

I'm really looking forward to the ActivityPub plugin maturing to the point where Discourse integrates thoroughly into the fediverse. It's a great start so far! 🎉

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@mcdanlj @jerry 🙇

Michael K Johnson Jun 29, 2023

@jerry @codinghorror You don't actually need my advice here, and I doubt you would deploy Discourse the same way I did (I'm using docker, not a k8s cluster) but as a survey of what pieces I put together, a thing I wrote might possibly be helpful. No obligation. But it's the kind of thing I wish existed when I got started. ☺

https://meta.discourse.org/t/mkjs-opinionated-discourse-deployment-configuration/193355?u=mcdanlj

MKJ's Opinionated Discourse Deployment Configuration

I have been running a Discourse forum with a substantial amount of content and plenty of images over the past few years. Maker Forums has over 100GB of images and over 400,000 posts, of which a substantial amount was imported, primarily from Google+, and the rest was created on the site. This post describes elements of how I eventually configured Maker Forums and, later, a few other Discourse instances. This is what I wish I knew when I got started, and which I’ve used to help others avoid some ...

Discourse Meta

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 29, 2023

@mcdanlj @codinghorror many thanks for this

Joe Cooper 🇺🇦 🍉Jun 29, 2023

@jerry @codinghorror Discourse is truly excellent. It's great/easy to administer, it's well-documented, it looks good out of the box, it has good moderation tools out of the box, and it integrates with other stuff easily. Tags implementation is annoying enough to where I don't let anybody other than me create tags, but that's a small thing. I hate nearly all modern software at least some of the time, but I never hate Discourse.

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@swelljoe @jerry 🙇

Fritz Adalis Jun 29, 2023

@jerry
@codinghorror
You're a madman.

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 29, 2023

@FritzAdalis @codinghorror I hear that a lot

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@jerry @FritzAdalis who wants to be normal? BORING

Boris Mann Jun 29, 2023

@jerry @codinghorror I run a handful of Discourse community sites and the default settings are very good out of the box, and even as a self hoster it is very easy to stay up to date.

I think it’s probably the right choice for us to run for our membership and working group at #CoSocialCa

It also has good SSO support which would be lovely if we can make it work for multiple Fedi services.

Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Jun 29, 2023

@codinghorror oh man, you're behind Discourse? That somehow makes a lot of sense.

Used it back in $OLDJOB, wrote a plugin making it possible to authenticate against (and pull in group membership from) an OIDC IdP. Got released as FLOSS eventually, not sure what happened with it since (the repo is now gone).
https://web.archive.org/web/20220422153823/https://github.com/occrp/discourse-oidc-basic

Anyway, blast from the past. Setting up a separate Discourse for a different thing these days.

GitHub - occrp/discourse-oidc-basic: A basic OpenID Connect plugin for use with Discourse

A basic OpenID Connect plugin for use with Discourse - GitHub - occrp/discourse-oidc-basic: A basic OpenID Connect plugin for use with Discourse

GitHub

Jeff Atwood Jun 29, 2023

@rysiek @jerry glad to hear it! Feedback from active admins and users is pure gold to us and always highly prioritized, so feel free to stop by https://meta.discourse.org as needed 🙇

Discourse Meta

Learn about and discuss Discourse, the next-generation open-source forum software.

Discourse Meta

Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Jun 29, 2023

@codinghorror 👍

LisPi Jun 29, 2023

@jerry > I also feel quite confident that the comments section harassment hasn’t changed someone’s mind to the way of the harasser.

Wouldn't this suggest running psyops to specifically poison a point of view you dislike?

Joe Beehammer (🐝 🔨)Jun 28, 2023

@jerry I had a misunderstanding with a big twitter personality once. I hated that they took what I said different than I said it but ultimately they blocked me. And I *left it alone* because it is always someone’s choice whether or not to engage with me. It’s not a hard concept

Lunar Scrapyard Jun 28, 2023

@jerry
This was a big reason I never got big into the bird site. I'm all for contentious debate/discussion but people just don't know how to respect boundaries.

these machines will destroy US.Jun 28, 2023

@jerry leave that shit at Reddit and Twitter. We don’t want that here.

Akshay | అక్షయ్Jun 28, 2023

@jerry Walking away from an internet argument is a superpower, and yet, sorely needed.

Third spruce tree on the left Jun 28, 2023

@jerry >AITA in this situation?

Pro tip: when it seems like everyone you interact with are assholes, surprise: you're the asshole.

Michael Vilain Jun 28, 2023

@jerry What are these "alternate ways of engaging" you speak of?

[Who needs 5G anyway]

Viss Jun 28, 2023

@jerry some of these folks are doing it intentionally. some of them are legitimately sociopaths, who enjoy making other people suffer.

lobster Jun 28, 2023

Dear Friends of #AITA

Am I The Asshole?
Always I am the Asshole, no need to ask Am I. I Am!

Had to look up the acronym. An excellent reminder for #BlameWorthy #Sufi
https://wisdomtavern.com/malamatiyya-the-path-of-blame/

you know it makes sense

Who ate her?

Malamatiyya - The Path of Blame

Malamatiyya (the path of blame) is the esoteric Sufi tradition, aiming to expose one's blameworthiness. Its principle centers on the annihilation of ego.

Wisdom Tavern

@jerry dunno why it needs to be said but +1 to what needed to be said.

VHasch Jun 28, 2023

This is why YouTube court tv is full of protection order cases.

Doubling down on being a jerk eventually leads to trouble.

Lynn Grant Jun 28, 2023

@jerry I have occasionally had discussions where someone took offense to something I said, then took offense when I tried to explain that no offense was intended. Maybe they had a chip on their shoulder; maybe I was having an incredibly clumsy communication day. It didn’t really matter. It was clear that the conversation was broken and could not be repaired. So the best thing to do was to bail out of the conversation, without further comment or parting shots.

carrickdb Jun 28, 2023

@jerry "Don't engage" has been my mantra for years now.

Mike L T Jun 28, 2023

@jerry @ChiaChatter As always there are several ways this could be viewed. However I found on previous social platforms before getting on to mastodon, that not getting involved unless someone is open to discussion which is obviously not the case in the original scenario of this thread, just leave it. I found the same to be true in real life. What does it do to have the last word really? I’ve been called weak for it but again its just my view, but walking away gives people time to calm and try to work through things. Or not as is sadly sometimes the case. I will add that I wish I adopted this back in my teens and early 20’s, however I didn’t. Again this raises another interesting point though about who we are influenced by and what we pick up from people. Now that I am older and can see the right way to act (again just my view,) I try to stay clear of such situations.

Alexander Portnoy 🌊 🏳️‍🌈Jun 28, 2023

@jerry The problem is that being an ahole is considered a virtue by some in this country.

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿CMDR GreyAreaUK Jun 28, 2023

@jerry (Me, pausing while tying notes to carrier pigeons addressed to my enemies that all read “And another thing…”)

Jeroen van Bergen Jun 28, 2023

@jerry Good advice! This reminds me of the time I was active on FidoNet. Because of the technical nature of FidoNet it would take longer, but exactly the same patterns could be seen. It’s hard to take a step back in public, but sometimes it is the only right thing to do.

Ned Jun 28, 2023

@jerry always relevant

It's so easy to reduce the person on the other side of the screen to a paticular opinion or position

We lack the usual social cues and context that predispose us to humanise our interlocutor, instead abstracting them to the 'opposition', an ideological construct that needs must be torn down...

Mark Fulford Jun 28, 2023

@jerry It’s good advice, and chimes perfectly with my almost 20 years in political forums.

It’s similar to some wisdom I received from a brilliant driving instructor: “that person who’s tailgating you, is there anything you can do from your driving seat to make them less of a dick? No. So the best thing you can do is calmly move out of their way and have them out of your life as soon as possible.”

Peter Relph Jun 28, 2023

@jerry

I'm curious.

What causes you to feel the need to say this?

Why is it your concern?

Jerry 🦙💝🦙Jun 28, 2023

@peterrelph it’s my job as moderator of several fediverse instances that led me to post that. I have to mediate these disputes.

Paul Quirk Jun 28, 2023

@jerry it takes two to engage. If you want to block a person, you can just block them without making an announcement that you're blocking them, and that is usually the end of things on that matter. Announcing publicly that you're blocking the person because they're whatever derogatory term you wish to call them is just begging the other person to continue to engage in other ways, as this amounts to public shaming of that person and actually escalates rather than de-escalates.

A. Rivera Jun 28, 2023

@jerry That is what the block button is for, which I use generously. More people honestly need to learn to walk away.

GreenDotGuy Jun 28, 2023

@jerry if you're one of these people who has trouble leaving without the 'last word', just say "it's clear that we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. Goodbye." and then just stop. There's no algorithm that's gonna reward you with more eyeballs for impassioned arguments here.

Sal Randolph Jun 28, 2023

@jerry The desire to be right is such a strong force in human affairs that we need a word for it. Do any languages other than English have one we can borrow?

Colon Musk, CEO of GaceX Jun 28, 2023

SofaKingHigh Jun 28, 2023

@jerry honestly mastodon just doesn’t have that kind of atmosphere, even they few heated discussions I’ve had would be civil by any other socials standard, only been blocked by one person so far.

DROP\ TABLE Hacker of Earthsea Jun 28, 2023

@jerry someone's in trouble ooooo

marty Jun 28, 2023