Mastodawn

Simple Nomad Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers This. So much this. The "wait and see" attitude that some people have with Meta is concerning for this very scenario.

Jun 19, 2023

@simplenomad @joshbressers "Meta has never, ever, ever prioritized the privacy and safety of users over profit at any point in their history and has frequently embraced new tech only to force people into their implementation and then cut off support for other implementations but I'm sure this time will be different!"

@emberquill @simplenomad @joshbressers defederating wouldn't prevent that. Them having a service in the fediverse doesn't give them more access to our information than they already have now. #ActivityPub isn't private.

Jun 21, 2023

@trekman10 @simplenomad @joshbressers Defederating doesn't prevent Meta from reading data, however federation does open up additional avenues for Meta to violate privacy and online safety beyond just reading our data. Serving targeted ads to people who don't even use their website, for example. Enabling stalking and harassment and all the other nasty behaviors that instance moderators try to prevent, because let's face it: we already know their moderation will be inadequate. And so on.

@emberquill @simplenomad @joshbressers like somehow getting ads on the feed for my current mastodon account? wouldn't be any different than muting or blocking the irrelevant posters in the hashtags I follow, since there's no way they'd be able to do actual sponsored posts, as far as my understanding of Mastodon goes.

Or so you mean using what i post on mastodon to serve ads to me elsewhere? Because again, they already can do that and I have extensions and methods to circumvent that.

Jun 21, 2023

@trekman10 @simplenomad @joshbressers There are many things they could do. Most of them would immediately out them as trying to kill or seriously twist the Fediverse but I'm always suspicious of large companies entering environments where there doesn't seem to be a market for them. After all, how does Meta plan to profit from entering the Fediverse? Until I know the answer to that question, I'm suspicious by default.

They're developing their own application, not just a Meta-branded Mastodon instance. They can inject all sorts of garbage into the federated timeline. They can decide not to allow federation for posts they don't like, or repeatedly boost posts they *do* like. They could use any username on their instance or create new ones on the fly to circumvent user-level blocking. They could send out ads disguised as posts from users you follow.

A lot of the way Fediverse servers behave is based on trust in admins and an agreement to not abuse the system. I don't *trust* Meta.

Simple Nomad Jun 21, 2023

@emberquill @trekman10 @joshbressers Grabbing everything from your profile and everything from your post and creating a “digital imprint”. Taking this imprint and matching it up with everything else they have. Selling the information to a data broker who will do the same. You not having a “say” in the matter since it is a public posting. That’s the first concern. Then the next concern which is even bigger, is the “embrace, extend, extinguish” method that Microsoft is known for. Large corporations do this for increasing “market share” which means they do it for money.

@simplenomad @emberquill @joshbressers my point is, they can take digital fingerprints now. I also am not sure if defederate-on-site will prevent EEE from happening considering how many instances have said they wouldn't, and now how there's instances saying they'll defederate those ones too. It has always been a matter of time, since it is FOSS, before companies make their way here.

I do think that #ActivityPub is structured in such a way to be naturally resistant to it.

@emberquill @simplenomad @joshbressers since it's their own fediverse-enabled client with #ActivityPub, anything they add to their version wouldn't get transferred to non-#Project92 platforms.

Any such ad or spam accounts can be blocked. Also, the same holds true for many instances. I'm not saying it'll be fine, but I'm also thinking that there will be people who'll first use the fediverse through this and can be swayed away from Meta when they follow non-Meta accounts

@emberquill @simplenomad @joshbressers in the end I do think they'll end up getting defedersted en-masse at the first sign of nefarious activity and I will support such actions.

Simple Nomad Jun 21, 2023

@trekman10 @emberquill @joshbressers Yes it is unfortunate but yeah, I don’t have a lot of hope that it will be anything but that outcome.

Jun 22, 2023

@trekman10 @simplenomad @joshbressers Perhaps, but you're underestimating what can be done within the standards of ActivityPub without the constraints of a specific implementation like Mastodon. I already know of at least a couple ways they could justify (or even try to hide) pushing ads to other instances. When you own the whole instance, evading anything short of a site-wide block would be easy. Disguising ads as posts wouldn't be hard either. Hiding those ads from people you don't want to see them, even the user that you sent the ad from, wouldn't be terribly difficult.

I know it all sounds like doomsaying and "what ifs" but at this point I'm not willing to give any Big Social company the benefit of the doubt. They've repeatedly and consistently shown a willingness to screw over their users to benefit shareholders, and when they federate with the wider Fediverse, we all become their users, whether we like it or not.

@simplenomad @joshbressers I don't think defederation should be the default for whatever Meta's service even ends up being. I do think that there should be plenty of instances that do, so that the people who are actively running away from FB and corporate social media have an option, but I think defederating from instances that don't defederate from Meta would be exactly the sort of cannibalistic division that would enable Meta to get a larger share of Fediverse users.

seb hanlon 😷Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers @cstross “Wait don’t People remember the … oh, I guess not, that was … Jesus god I’m old”

mmby Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers question is though, what to do about it?

a large corp could just fork their own version and race ahead in terms of features and fixes - the only option left is to deliberately not play ball with their clients

Trashfirekitten Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers "Oh don't be so paranoid, there's no *proof* the corporate entity that has ruined the last dozen things it has touched is gonna ruin *this* thing. Oh, and Charlie Brown, I'm sure Lucy isn't gonna pull the football away this time and let you kick it for once~"

mike Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers It’s not like the fediverse means well to Facebook, either. ;-) They are making an aggressive move but they are also exposing an exploitable surface. Despite their valuation they are not necessarily strategic geniuses…

Bob Hyman Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers @ct92
Instructive link and probably does reflect corporate thinking. Arguably EEE from Windows didn't kill Linux, instead made it stronger. (MS no longer touts "Better with Windows", e.g). Maybe same here?
Meta's motivations aside, we should be focused on how to engage with Facebook *users*, to show them the advantages of #fediverse life, now that they could leave Facebook itself without leaving all their friends behind.

Björn Lindström Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers also could possibly be useful for users of VS Code, GitHub and WSL maybe ...

antipode77 Jun 19, 2023

@bkhl @joshbressers

That was a well known Microsoft strategy.

Maybe still is. Next CEO might be tempted to revive EEE.

Companies should be run more Democratically.

Oblomov Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers @jwz
somebody should expand that page with the XMPP story. The rhetoric about FB and Google adopting it for their messengers was EXACTLY the same we're seeing today for FB‌ with ActivityPub. It's uncanny.

jwz Jun 19, 2023

@oblomov @joshbressers
I mean, I noped out of that article at paragraph 2. Once they let some MICROS~1 staffer add in their press-release rebuttal:

"The phrase is no longer used by Microsoft, or describes its current position toward Linux or open source generally."

the credibility of the rest of the article is null and void.

Scot Hacker Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers Microsoft embraced open source without extinguishing it, or attempting to.

Takiro 🎨Jun 19, 2023

@shacker @joshbressers
Because they now found a way to leech off open source like the cancer they once claimed open source is.

Scot Hacker Jun 20, 2023

@Takiro @joshbressers They've been good open source stewards with vscode and many other technologies.

TheHalpi Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers from the article you linked “The phrase is no longer used by Microsoft, or describes its current position toward Linux or open source generally. Microsoft has "changed since the days of branding Linux a cancer" and is currently the largest firm contributing to open-source projects.” Maybe it’s not all doom and gloom?

Stefan Monnier Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers I'd tend to expect that from them, indeed. Whether they'd be able to do that, is less clear: as long as my instance only shows me the posts from accounts/hashtags to which I explicitly subscribed (as opposed to using some algorithm controlled by someone else), there's a chance that ads will make their way only following the same kind of paths as email ads.

IOW, my optimistic-self hopes tht maybe it's not much easier to monetize the fediverse than it is to monetize email. In this case, it might be more useful to consider Meta's threat in light of things like Gmail's effect on email.

Maggieci democracy enjoyer Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers Keep your friends close and your enemies closer

MurphysLaw Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers

WOW. V-cool! K-rad!

anarchademic Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers

"If Meta’s P92 project became as popular as its other online services, with hundreds of millions of users, it could also swamp the rest of the fediverse. In that case, Meta would be able to diverge from the open standards, for example by blocking the ability of users to migrate to other instances, in a classic case of embrace, extend, and extinguish."

https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/meta-explores-mastodon/

Meta Explores Mastodon, Will the fediverse Survive? - PIA VPN

Meta and WordPress are now looking to follow their users on Mastodon, but can the fediverse survive the internet giants?

PIA VPN Blog

packy Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers EEE isn't the only way this can end. There are people like me who have the advanced age to truly grok EEE know that it's not the only way things can go.

Sandy Johnson Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers For those old enough to remember -> Microsoft

Matthieu Jun 19, 2023

@joshbressers On the same wikipedia article, you can look at the list of attempts from Microsoft and how many time they failed.

Damon Outlaw Jun 19, 2023

@matthieu_xyz @joshbressers I keep seeing this but I don’t see how this is possible with the Fediverse. 1) They will immediately come in with more users 2) There’s multiple platforms with multiple options of accessing said platforms. 3) Most people here have already had accounts on Meta’s services.