Mastodawn

IMHO XMPP / Jabber is the best Instant Messenger (IM) protocol

https://feddit.dk/post/103685

IMHO XMPP / Jabber is the best Instant Messenger (IM) protocol - Feddit.dk

It is battle tested, standardized, widely used, have open source servers and apps, end-to-end encryption (OMEMO), self-hostable and are low on ressources and more. I use it with family and friends. Conversations and blabber.im [http://blabber.im] on android and Gajim on Linux. There’s also apps for windows and Apple. Curious if anyone here use it and why, why not?

Sisko Urso Jun 19, 2023

We used to use it at work and I loved it but then eventually got replaced by slack which I am not a fan of.

privsecfoss Jun 19, 2023

We use Teams and friends at work, so I know the struggle.

baseless_discourse Jun 19, 2023

slack is the worst team communicate software ever existed. Everything

pimeys Jun 19, 2023

Even Microsoft Teams?

baseless_discourse Jun 20, 2023

My wife uses teams for work, it seems pretty nice, it has everything in place, like video meeting, meeting note, calendar, and everything seems very streamlined.

Slack just don't have anything. What is your complaint about teams, is it unstable or something?

pimeys Jun 20, 2023

Buggy, uses a ton of resources, super weird UI. I've said no in job interviews to companies who use Teams as their main communication platform. Slack is "fine", but much better than Teams. At least it works, especially from Linux.

floofloof Jun 19, 2023

I see someone hasn't used Microsoft Teams.

dom Jun 20, 2023

Or hipchat

itchy_lizard Jun 20, 2023

Hipchat is XMPP. I used to connect to it in Pidgin.

The Cuuuuube Jun 20, 2023

Hipchat was great before Atlassian sold it to slack

dom Jun 20, 2023

I wish I knew that when we used it. I was using their client and it wasnt great. Slack was a welcome change when we switched

BrikoX Jun 19, 2023

It's great, problem is adoption with non tech people. You clearly had better luck with your friends and family than most. It's hard enough to get them to use something as standard as Signal.

privsecfoss Jun 19, 2023

Agree it's easier to get techies on board. With normal people it is kind of a struggle competing and argumenting against the likes of WhatsApp, FB messenger and such. But I totally think it's worth it because privacy.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

I host my own XMPP server and I like it (super lightweight and easy to set up), but good god the people that work on XMPP stuff seem to not want it to take off at all. They all complain that everybody is using matrix for some mysterious reason and when you explain that you can’t in good conscience get your friends to switch to it because there aren’t really great iOS apps it’s just a hissy fit about how people should use android instead… which is just not very realistic. Really wish XMPP had a good cross platform client. The client situation is improving rapidly and OMEMO finally mostly works everywhere! But it’d be really nice if there was a consistent client between platforms.

That all sounds really critical, but I really do like XMPP and I really hope it gets better and gains more traction again! We really need good federated chat again, ideally just associated with an email address or something… because the current chat ecosystem is a mess!

poVoq Jun 19, 2023

It's the best obviously ;)

Check out: https://slrpnk.net/c/xmpp (which was moved from lemmy.ml as the community there is effected by a bug).

Also see: https://joinjabber.org/

floofloof Jun 19, 2023

My colleagues and I had set up a nice self-hosted XMPP server which everyone could use to chat in-house without any of the traffic leaving. We had it end-to-end encrypted and it was quick and easy. Then management (with the support of a few employees who like hype) switched us to Slack. It wasn't private, all our confidential messages went out to the internet, and many people didn't like it. Once management got frustrated wit it they switched us to Microsoft Teams. After using that for a year, I miss Slack. Teams is a bloated buggy mess with a UI designed to confuse, and it also has all the disadvantages of Slack.

A few of us have secretly switched to Matrix and Element. It's good. Don't tell management.

zekiz Jun 19, 2023

Reminds me of a company I recently got an job interview to (and got declined, but I would've declined anyway).

They were switching around their software every year and are currently in the process of migrating to Teams

Widget Jun 19, 2023

the boss could technically read anything we wrote

My old work actually ran into some issues because they couldn't see DMs/private channels.

Maybe this is a cloud vs. self-hosted thing? It's been a few years since I've worked there though.

floofloof Jun 20, 2023

In an average workplace that seems like a bit of a losing battle to fight since everyone can message each other on personal phones anyway. But I can see it if it's a workplace that handles sensitive information and restricts the use of personal devices.

My workplace went remote-only. So they don't really stand a chance of preventing us messaging each other on our personal devices. I do try to keep the work machine separate though.

kalipike Jun 19, 2023

@floofloof I would love to move to Matrix/Element but don't know a single person who uses it, so it doesn't seem like it would much benefit me unfortunately. I do still have an account though.

Scott Jun 20, 2023

Install some bridges. I've managed to remove all those third party chat apps from my devices and just use Matrix to chat to everyone whether they're on Slack, Discord, WhatsApp, IRC, etc.

dwindling7373 Jun 20, 2023

Can hyou point me on some good material to learn about them? I've been reading about those for years but never crossed a guide...

leetnewb Jun 19, 2023

I use it for OMEMO encrypted family messaging and image transfer (snikket). Very fast messaging, lightweight server, and the A/V works quite well. Biggest issue, imo, is the lack of a great iOS client - not a judgement on the developers, I think that's just the reality of developing on iOS. But an iOS client that works as seamlessly as Conversations would go a long way to regaining lost traction.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

This is what I’ve been saying for years. Siskin is pretty good these days, but it’s still not perfect (push notifications with OMEMO have no content). It’s really hard to recommend XMPP to people when the iOS experience is kind of bad (with omemo, anyway).

🌞🌞🌞Aug 30, 2023

I cannot recommend Siskin, as those in my life that have tried it have always experienced random issues. I find Monal to be a better experience in every way, except for the lack of calling support with Conversations.

No_Signal Jun 19, 2023

I'd use it but theres no one to use it with

Sens Jun 19, 2023

I think it should be incorporated into Lemmy as a chat function. Also been thinking if I could develop it, I have experience with XMPP from an application my employer creates.

kopper [they/them]Jun 20, 2023

Considering the fact that there is a special field in user profiles for a Matrix handle, I imagine upstream would prefer something Matrix-y instead.

Of course I can't speak for anyone involved. Especially if someone else is thinking of writing the code themselves.

zorrothefox2001 Jun 19, 2023

IIRC Google Talk using XMPP and most major messengers having GTalk integration, they pretty much accidentally federated several messenger apps

j4yc33 Jun 19, 2023

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

leetnewb Jun 19, 2023

Google's messaging play has only gotten worse since then. Oh well.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

I still cannot believe the Google I/O where they killed Talk and said “we’re consolidating all of the Google chat applications into hangouts. There will only be hangouts” and then the very next Google I/O they announced TWO new chat applications (allo and duo), and whose purpose I never understood, and then every year since they’re like “everything is Google meet now… no, not that Google meet, the other Google meet” and I have absolutely no idea what’s going on and nothing makes me feel so old and out of touch like trying to follow Google’s chat ecosystem.

treadful Jun 20, 2023

They took out XMPP years ago. I had a lot of hope for the future when they first federated. Even ran my own server and was able to talk to Google Talk users. Alas...

fouc Jun 20, 2023

I doubt it was accidental, that's standard tech corp playbook. Builf on established technology, then shut the gates when critical mass has been achieved.

Matija Šuklje Jun 19, 2023

@privsecfoss I would absolutely love to get back to #XMPP as my main (ideally only) IM, but in time some things made it hard to do so:

- it's extensible and not all clients support all modernly needed extensions - the #Jabber XEP solves this (on paper/standard level)
- loads of spam - again, tackled by Jabber XEP bundle and clients that fully implement it
- and ultimately, 90% of my contacts there never pop up anymore - network effect problem

MattJ Jun 20, 2023

@hook
Extensibility is not a reason not to use XMPP.

It's true, not all XMPP software supports every feature. However we didn't all stop browsing the web because Internet Explorer 6 doesn't support HTML5 🙂

There is plenty of modern XMPP software to choose from, and if you don't want to choose, Snikket is a great place to start (in my humble opinion - I work on that project).
@privsecfoss

Matija Šuklje Jun 20, 2023

@mattj, you are totally right re extensibility & I probably worded that a bit awkwardly (I blame jetlag).

I guess my gist would be:
• XMPP is amazing, but also complex
• complexity ⇒ many clients
• small(ish) user base ⇒ not all clients support full Jabber XEP
• ⇒ choice paralysis or bad experience with first choice
• ⇒ user base stays small(ish)

🐔 & 🥚

IMHO to break out of it, we need critical mass (again).

( using #XMPP / #Jabber since 2010: https://matija.suklje.name/migrating-to-xmppjabber-and-aim-woes )

Migrating to XMPP/Jabber (and AIM woes)

Alright, so I've decided to finally drop proprietary IM protocols. To some extend because promoting free software and open standards while at the same using proprietary protocols of companies that don't respect your privacy is a bit, well, let's be honest, hypocritic. On the other hand though because I've increasingly …

Hook’s Humble Homepage

MattJ Jun 20, 2023

@hook
I understand. Your points somewhat echo what's written at https://snikket.org/about/goals/ and https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/ . I think we agree on many things.

I just get triggered when these problems turn into reasons not to take action. I migrated my family to XMPP and it's great. Others have done the same.

I didn't ask them to choose clients, I just sent them an invitation link to our self-hosted server. They didn't even need tech support signing up.

My message: don't give up 🙂
@privsecfoss

Snikket Goals

Overview Snikket is an ambitious project to build a new kind of XMPP-based messaging platform. Until now, the XMPP ecosystem has been very fragmented - a collection of projects with a mixture of different designs, terminologies and quality. Diversity is excellent, and the foundation of any healthy ecosystem. But we also need to have some amount of consistency. Snikket aims to provide this consistency, and provide a friendly entrance to the world of XMPP.

Snikket Chat

Matija Šuklje Jun 20, 2023

@mattj, I guess you’re right.

I’m probably paralysed a bit due to my main XMPP server being (someone else’s) small instance that’s not very maintained (can’t blame them) and every time I log in I’m literally greeted with hundreds (thousands?) of spam invites and messages.

I should probably migrate to a more active server. Happy to pay/donate for it too.

(I moved my family to #Matrix, but would prefer #Jabber, esp. if self-hosting was easy enough for my weak-ass admin skills.)

MattJ Jun 20, 2023

@hook
https://snikket.org/hosting/ is a paid (well, currently free while in beta 🤫) service that I work on.

There are other hosting options too: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Hosting_Providers
@privsecfoss

Snikket Hosting

Snikket is a fully open-source personal messaging server that allows groups of people such as family, friends, clubs and small organisations to have their own private communication space. You can use our simple dashboard to launch Snikket instances for you in just a few minutes. It’s a great option if you’re just looking for a more privacy-friendly alternative to mainstream messengers such as Facebook, WhatsApp or Telegram, without any technical knowledge required.

Snikket Chat

Matija Šuklje Jun 20, 2023

@mattj, thanks. Will look into it.

...still hoping for an XMPP renaissance.

death916 Jun 19, 2023

I'm still on irc

The Cuuuuube Jun 19, 2023

Irc is underrated. Its my example for people getting upset communities are moving to forums instead of the fediverse sometimes because its old that old does not mean outdated.

And don't get me wrong, I really like this communication model, but I would never suggest it for a major software project community. I need things to be fully baked for official adoption. Part of my interest in contributing here is getting us enough critical mass that threadiverse development gets to that fully baked point

privsecfoss Jun 20, 2023

Also big fan of IRC. It has some of the same advantages as XMPP, and then some for group chat.

jlarex Jun 20, 2023

We had an XMPP server at work but 90% of people wouldn't bother using it. As much as I dislike Teams it the only client that's ever been deployed in my company that everyone actually uses.

pkulak Jun 20, 2023

I’ve been self-hosting Matrix for years and it’s been amazing.

Björn Tantau Jun 20, 2023

I had my own server and used it for a long time until Android decided that it knows better what background services I want to have running and thus killed the "instant" part of instant messaging.

Since then I'm on Signal and could at least convince most of my friends and family to move there.

jherazob Jun 20, 2023

It's an ongoing problem on mobile, can be mitigated but yeah, it's an issue

Don’t kill my app!

Hey Android vendors, don’t kill my app!

Don’t kill my app!

itchy_lizard Jun 20, 2023

I like XMPP and OTR is nice, but we need double-ratchet for secure communications and sync with multiple devices.

leetnewb Jun 20, 2023

Omemo is double ratchet and my messages sync to multiple devices. New device can't read old messages sent before exchanging keys with the other clients.

agrammatic Jun 20, 2023

What I have to give to XMPP is that it's one of the easiest federated services to self-host. Running Prosody is super simple.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

Prosody is amazing and I’m still astounded by how easy it is to get XMPP up and running. That’s great stuff!

fouc Jun 20, 2023

It's trivial to self host. I'm running a server on a small VPS for the family. Best part is they don't even know they are running XMPP, just installed Conversations and that was it.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

I switched to iOS from android a while ago, but conversations was an AMAZING app and I wish there was something even half as good on iOS. That said… isn’t it the case that conversations is a paid app on Google play, and only free on fdroid? It’s totally worth the $2 or whatever it was on Google play, but I feel like it’s a hard sell for normal people who are used to free chat apps? Did you have any problems with that, or has the situation changed since I last looked?

fouc Jun 24, 2023

Yes Conversations is still a paid app on Play Store. The F-Droid version also doesn't support Google cloud notifications so some message notifications will go missing occasionally. For Android there's also Quickly which is a Conversations fork and aTalk which works OK but reminds me of 90s Windows software. It's still quite usable though. Honestly Conversations is totally worth the money if only for the amount of effort gone into modernising the platform which also a testament to its extensibility.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

Oh, I totally agree that conversations is worth the $4 or whatever. I just have a hard time convincing friends to switch over to a new chat application to talk to only me when it’s not even free for them, you know? And if it’s a less technical person getting them on fdroid is a tricky proposition too. I don’t begrudge conversations for charging, but I do think it would be easier to get people on XMPP otherwise.

leetnewb Jun 24, 2023

There is also Cheogram (conversations fork), which is actively developed/tweaked by the jmp.chat folks - very nice. Also Snikket (conversations fork) that is themed and tweaked to use with a snikket server, but it happily works with other servers.

Another interesting tidbit. Chromebooks integrate the Android runtime to run play store apps. Windows 11 is also kinda/sorta shipping an Android runtime, but not by default. You can also spin up an Android runtime on Linux. I tested the snikket android app on Windows 11 and ChromeOS - works perfectly. So, I suspect all conversations forks can run across Android, Windows, ChromeOS, and Linux platforms - pretty neat. Doesn't solve the iOS gap and getting the runtimes going could use polish on Windows and Linux. And nothing against the other desktop apps in development, but the ability to essentially run the Android app against most major environments makes me want to contribute to that code base (if I had any ability to develop for android, that is).

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

Ah yeah, another fun fact is that Snikket on iOS is a rebranding of Siskin. On iOS Siskin seems to be the best option right now with the one caveat that push notifications won’t contain the content of OMEMO messages (I think the plan is to design and implement an encrypted push XEP?). Conversations is probably the best xmpp application out there, so I’ve been tempted to run it on Linux via the Android runtime in the past. These days I’m pretty happy with Dino.

I feel like we need something like converse.js on all platforms or something. Just something decent and consistent so you can recommend it to a friend on a different device and help them / understand their perspective, you know? I think converse.js has a desktop app via electron now, which seems like a start.

leetnewb Jun 24, 2023

The standalone converse app was problematic when I tried it last. Also, there was a summer of code attempt at bringing jingle a/v sessions to converse, but it was never completed and nobody seems to have picked it up.

Chobbes Jun 24, 2023

That’s a bit of a shame. I don’t personally find jingle that important, but it’d be great if it worked… Also OMEMO on converse is sort of in a weird state I think. AFAIK it still depends on a JS libsignal library that’s deprecated.