Accidental Tech PodcastMay 30, 2023

537: Worse Than All of Our Toilets
https://atp.fm/537

Hopes for WWDC’s announcements, exit interviews for the outgoing OSes, and how a Virginia man destroyed a car and computer in a single weekend.

Due to our incredible strategy (…a sponsor-timing mishap), this episode is members-only until Thursday, our usual release day.

Join now to listen early! https://atp.fm/join

Accidental Tech Podcast: 537: Worse Than All of Our Toilets

Three nerds discussing tech, Apple, programming, and loosely related matters.

Show threadClarko

@atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss SwiftUI isn’t responsible for what you dislike about System Settings.

By default, SwiftUI uses the AppKit widgets. You have to *opt in* to different styles, which System Settings has done.

And you can quibble about those styles, for sure. But this is about the designers, not the technology.

Difference between the screenshots below:

.formStyle(.grouped)
.toggleStyle(.switch)

Otherwise it’s the same code in both cases.

Jun 1, 2023 at 4:20pmIvory for iOS
Show threadCasey LissJun 1, 2023

@clarko Haha, there is FU for ~~the next episode~~ the episode after WWDC that covers this. However, the screenshots are SUPER helpful; thank you!

And while I have your attention, Symbolsaurus for iOS came in clutch for me earlier today. ✊🏻 (cc @gruber)

Show threadClarkoJun 1, 2023
@caseyliss Thanks!
Show threadClarkoJun 1, 2023
@caseyliss If we’re lucky we’ll have slightly fewer things to be annoyed by in macOS 14’s Settings app
Show threadtrozJun 1, 2023
@clarko @huwr @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss Completely agree. The things people object to in the System Settings app are design decisions, not SwiftUI bugs. It also seems that a different team designed each pane, leading to a lot of inconsistent UI. But I seem to be in the minority who actually likes the formStyle(.grouped) look.
Show threadJustin FerrellJun 1, 2023
@troz @clarko @huwr @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss when you learn Apple *chose* the look of the new System Settings app.
Show threadHuw RowlandsJun 1, 2023
@troz @clarko @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss I don't really mind the look — but the behaviour of the style could be improved
Show threadJeff C. 🇺🇦🇬🇱Jun 1, 2023

@troz @clarko @huwr @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss Internal inconsistency (between different panes).

External consistency (between macOS and iOS/iPadOS) of dubious value.

Show threadSteven WoolgarJun 2, 2023
@clarko @atpfm @siracusa @marcoarment @caseyliss @GeekAndDad I think you hit that nail right on the head.
Show threadJohn SiracusaJun 2, 2023
@clarko Not just different styles, but *new* styles, strongly suggesting that they are the path forward for macOS (just as SwiftUI is the API path forward).
Show threadClarkoJun 2, 2023

@siracusa Sure, but I buy the design rationale offered by CFed at @gruber’s WWDC show last year, even if I don’t much care for all the gray lines and trapped negative space.

I think the biggest challenge for Mac aficionados going forward is the reality that there just aren’t many designers around anymore who’ve ever designed Mac apps, including the head of software design at Apple. A lot of the current generation of designers grew up with iPads.

Show threadClarkoJun 2, 2023

@siracusa and IIRC there were a lot of complaints about the Mac App Store, News, Stocks, Music, Home, etc. Lots of recent-ish Mac apps whose design shortcomings were initially blamed on Catalyst, and then CFed again had to come out and say “no, we actually designed them this way”?

A lot of Mac apps nowadays do seem to just be glorified iPad apps. And on purpose.

Show threadDomJun 2, 2023
@clarko @siracusa @gruber I’m no dev but surely they’ve all seen and used old Mac apps? (They’re literally replacing old design.) By the same token, all designers will have seen (hopefully studied) the work of their predecessors. Without trying to sound pretentious, I’m chalking this down to bad taste.
Show threadClarkoJun 2, 2023

@dominoslater @siracusa @gruber People become designers for different reasons, have different interests, experience, priorities. Switching is hard. The work gets in your bones.

Analogizing to other professions: TV directors, movie directors, ad directors. Novelists, playwrights, comic book writers, poets. Jazz drummers and punk drummers.

Everyone is technically capable of doing another speciality. They’ve seen it their whole life, studied it, but they don’t switch. They’re not fungible.

Show threadDomJun 2, 2023
@clarko @siracusa @gruber 🤷🏻‍♂️
Show threadJohn GruberJun 2, 2023
@clarko @siracusa True. But in the late ’80s, Mac apps looked like Mac apps and developers embraced the aesthetic, despite growing up on command-line text terminals.
Show threadClarkoJun 2, 2023

@gruber @siracusa Mmm. But at the time a GUI was aspirational. You were designing the future. I don’t think anybody sees a Mac app as designing the future anymore.

Most companies don’t make a Mac app because they have a web app. Or an iOS app that runs on Apple silicon. “Why spend the time on custom UI for a legacy platform?”

I don’t think Apple agrees with that sentiment. I sure don’t. But I think they see lowering design and development costs on minority platforms as existential.

Show threadDan WinemanJun 2, 2023

@clarko @gruber @siracusa It’s not “lowering costs” so much as pushing costs onto users — cognitive load costs, productivity costs, etc. To choose that tradeoff as the world’s wealthiest company, you have to either be willfully ignorant of decades of human factors research (a complaint that goes back at least as far as the Spatial Finder debate) or believe that users choose and stay with platforms for reasons other than ease of use.

Neither possibility makes me feel very good.

Show threadClarkoJun 3, 2023

@dwineman @gruber @siracusa My comment was about design and development costs for third-party apps.

Apple’s done a good job attracting companies to ship native apps for iOS. Less so on macOS, where today I had to use Google Docs and MailChimp in a browser for 2 hours because there are simply no native apps for those services.

It’s a tall order for most companies to spend effort on macOS when consumers overwhelmingly agree web apps are “good enough” on the desktop.

Show threadDan WinemanJun 3, 2023
@clarko @gruber @siracusa I think companies for whom web apps can be “good enough” aren’t going to bother making a native app no matter how easy the design and development are. The dealbreaker is in the cost of maintaining and distributing any app at all. The MAS was supposed to make that simpler but, due to its draconian rules, has instead become a huge force *against* native Mac apps in many categories. I think if you want to improve the Mac app ecosystem, that's where you have to start.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 3, 2023
@dwineman @clarko @siracusa I don't really think we're of opposing views here, just taking different perspectives. I do think if something can just be a website, it should just be a website. But if it should be an app it should be a native app, and a write-once-run-everywhere Electron (or similar) desktop app more often than not winds up being more expensive over time. Or, the company behind it has no idea how much usage they're losing by not having a good native Mac app.
Show threadJohn GruberJun 3, 2023

@clarko @siracusa But there are aspects of this new Mac aesthetic that are objectively bad. Not just new or different, but clearly not good. @Viditb describes one such pattern here:

https://blog.viditb.com/redesigning-the-macos-ventura-form-layout/

Redesigning the macOS Ventura Form Layout

macOS Ventura introduces a new design to display forms. The design looks  like this: As you can see with this design, it's got a couple of glaring of issues when used in wide width situation: There's too much space between the title and value. This makes reading the values veery

Pixel Posts
Show threadClarkoJun 3, 2023

@gruber @siracusa @Viditb Yup. But there were aspects of early Aqua that were objectively bad. And brushed metal, and green felt, and Helvetica Neue Ultralight. They’ve been swinging and missing for decades, but also cleaning up as they go.

I’ve been working on hardware and software this whole time and I sure as hell haven’t been proud of everything that shipped. Not always my call.

Lots of arguments at any company about scope, ship date, and quality. Cheap fast good. That’s the job.

Show threadMajd TabyJun 3, 2023

@clarko plus IMO macOS needs a refresh. Though I agree with the counter argument that the current halfway mix between iPadOS and macOS is the worst of all worlds.

Quality of these new apps on the Mac also being subpar really doesn’t help