Worthless Bumsthere is literally no reason the bolter should be heavy
you literally designed it to be all cool so it doesn't have to be
imagine if star wars was like "oh yeah also the lightsaber is super heavy. only the jedi can wield it by using the force to lift it"
it's that level of wtf
so what you're saying is i can also kill you by shooting the weak point at your armor's neck xD
/r/warhammer40k: "we hate this. space marines are invincible and never die"
/r/40klore: "here's all the times they died to kitchen knives and shit"
so a common theme of space marines getting murked is a buncha people just burying them under bodies
in other words, drop a tank on them then stab their exposed bits
depending on author one might decide the space marine can pinky flip the tank tho
apparently a chaos marine got killed by an elevator falling on him
literally had an elevator dropped on him lol
i think a lot of this is on gw being terrible at numbers
like if gw tells you 50,000 space marines is wiping the floor with billions you don't wanna hear a space marine got murked with a spear
anyway, given how resource intensive it is to train and outfit one single ass space marine, the 40k universe should have developed fancy ass missiles to just target space marines at this point
yes that missile cost ten million money
it still cost way less than that space marine did
it's particularly bonkers given the scale of the warhammer universe
that cost is a drop in the bucket, and space marines are a finite, very limited, commodity
just blow them the fuck up
space marines would never survive in 40k
"i can run through walls and face tank heavy machine guns"
*drops a fucking nuke on you*
lasguns are significantly weaker than even civilian laser pistols in fallout lore
yeah i'm pretty sure i am gonna one round vats that squad down now
also lasguns can recharge... from solar? the fuck how long would that take xD
shouldn't a telekinetic psyker just be able to squish a space marine's brain from inside their skull
i feel like i've watched astartes before
seems vaguely familiar
i think i figured it out
not only are 40k fans just fanatically horny about space marines, they also seem to be largely unaware of any other universe
also i felt like wargamers in general would have a better grasp of military logistics, but i am getting the feeling that the 40k base is actually really split between the wargaming, the collecting/painting, and the lore
there are some people who are just in it for the lore and don't play or own any minis
the problem is that this is a miserable return on resource investment in the 40k universe where this is scaled up tremendously
a few thousand space marines? tens of thousands?
in 40k lore there are quadrillions. a galactic ocean of randos with lasguns
if you want historical, real life precedent, special forces are wiped out or forced to retreat by conventional forces all the damned time
are you really gonna risk 20 space marines to tie up 100 orks?
1,000? 10,000?
it's pretty well-established that a whole host of things can grease space marines. using them like shock troops (as widely depicted in the lore and cinematics i have seen) is wildly irresponsible and likely ineffective
"we sent the space marines in and they KILLED EVERYONE"
if you wanna kill everyone you just level the place. stand off and use explosives. what the hell are you doing
space marines in 40k aren't shown to do any of the actually special things real life special forces do
their lore dictates that only they can do/use their Cool Guy shit and toys, so they can't even train a partisan force
sneak over here and plant a bomb
aren't they expert tacticians? you should be laying battle plans and setting the stage for how your overwhelming conventional forces secure victory
i'm being told the imperium of man might have extremely limited capability to actually manufacture weapons of war
standby for lore checking and rage
alright lol
so this is a whole new threat level
not only does my fallout character one round vats that squad of space marines, i am not reverse engineering all their toys with the aid of micro fusion energy sources
"this is fucking pointless. why was this in here"
- my character, taking apart a bolter and instantly making it 10x lighter while not taking away any functionality apart from the possibility of recoil management
- my character, taking apart a bolter and instantly making it 10x lighter while not taking away any functionality apart from the possibility of recoil management
it's possible i could theoretically take over a substantial portion of the 40k universe by spamming gen 1 synths with institute energy weapons
ALSO THIS MAKES ALL THE GENERIC ASS SPACE MARINES GAMES WORKSHOP SELLS EVEN WORSE
IF THESE SUITS OF ARMOR ARE LIKE THIRTY THOUSAND YEARS OLD THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPAIRED WHO KNOWS HOW MANY TIMES AND TOTALLY CUSTOMIZED BY NOW
how are the tau not wiping the iom off the galactic map
everything i said about the space marines being a pointless waste of resources and being employed terribly multiply that by about 999999999999999999999999999999999999
one clever accountant with a spacefaring fleet could disable the entire imperium
me, loading up liberty prime with mini-nukes and tesla canons: "get in loser, we're going to kill space nazis"
i have swung almost completely 180 from "okay sure 40k would stomp most of fallout" straight into "no, wait, fallout would 9000% outproduce and outresearch you fucking losers"
so let's say a space marine's bolter jams
is he allowed to engage in a corrective procedure
would he even know how
is the geck an stc
giving @DarkestKale fitful nightmares because i told him i dunno what white dwarf is
also that fallout 1/2 aren't anti-nuke
also robocop 1 is copaganda
deal with it and adjust your worldview accordingly
one of the best and worst things about fandoms are fan theories
getting really into a (relatively large) fandom shows you have false information spreads, and not just from bad actors
someone made an honest to fuck mistake in a wiki? now everyone parrots it. years later
youtube in a way has made it so much better but also so much worse
because so many streamers/youtubers make lore videos now, which is cool
but they're still human. they make mistakes. and a lot of them run mods while making lore videos lol
now, obviously i have a sci-fi bias. i like fallout
i am currently reading (and not liking tbh) 40k lore
so these settings are ostensibly grounded in real life physics and reality
so you also get to throw in the added problem of: authorities in lore who don't understand how shit works in real life
last night before i went to bed youtube recommended me a 40k video
because of course it did
it was a fairly well viewed video by a channel with like a quarter million subs trying to draw conclusions about space marine power armor in 40k to real life protective capability
except this guy presented his findings as well researched etc etc... and he couldn't even read a fucking plate level rating correctly
and even worse? part of this is due to MOAR VIDEO GAMES KNOWLEDGE
because gamers will just say "7.62" and infer meaning
except that if you don't know what the fuck you are talking about wrt context that could be a wide range of cartridges
that's why we call 7.62(mm) a caliber
do you mean:
7.62x17mm?
7.62x25mm? (which variant?)
7.62x29mm?
7.62x51mm? (nato?)
you also have loadings, barrels, etc etc
and of course, the video overestimates the strength of space marine protection
even the section where he tried to downplay space marine armor he sort of handwaved it with an image of an rpg-7... which can fire a bunch of different warheads
it's excessively funny, especially since given the fandom love of space marines, they have an associated love of the bolter - and the explosive power of that ammunition
this fucking pg-7vr tho? nah lol THAT AIN'T SHIT
oh you got a tiny ass bullet
that's real fukken cute
we got tandem explosives
one of the drawbacks of modern individual armor is backface deformation
what happens when you get hit but the plate does not hold to spec and the back side deforms so much, just shoving all the fucking material into your body, even if the bullet/shrapnel/whatever does not actually penetrate your deformed armor
what the fuck is your space marine gonna do if half his front plate gets concaved
"he's got three lungs"
yeah and all three of them just got crushed by a curved layer of magic space steel that's stronger than he is, supposedly
so he can't even bend it back out to breathe
he can't cut himself out of it
he's just gonna fall over and die lol
in other words, even tho you made your space marines magically hardy, and fire and acid resistant with multiple organ redundancies or whatever, basic physics can still smoke you, even without penetration
yeah i said it
this is also assuming the ablative sheathing over space marine armor isn't brittle to fuck (in lore it appears not to be) and then direct energy weapons or good old fashioned heat don't start to work their way in
anyway i am much more willing to hand wave away "space marines are magically hardy due to bioengineering" - as long as you don't try to explain it to me in scientific terms lol
if you wanna tell me "no, your average sm can bench press ten tons" or some shit fine whatever
the moment you start describing how a fucking solenoid in his left buttcheck powers his abdominal core we are gonna have problems
like bolters. the more i read about bolters the more mad i get because from an engineering standpoint they make no fucking sense
just tell me it's a fucking explosive auto pistol that only space marines can use and that's FINE
you don't need to start trying to ground it badly in physics that don't make any damn sense
i don't need to know how mjolnir fucking works
malifaux looks interesting but the uhhh wyrd site is not great
there are eight factions and no page where it just gives you an overview of all of them
you need to click through on them all
however unlike games workshop/40k at least they give you a small paragraph on what you actually need to play
you can also click through and get some lore dump
i just wanna say: you don't HAVE to have one whole faction that is ASIAN MASHUP
you can just have different asian people throughout your factions
just sayin'
there's like two token white dudes in here tho lololol
Trying to do shit so I can finish my super mutant bases but adulting keeps blocking me
painting while waiting on the phone 🙃
I need a purple
Just a little
But bright
Me: "purple is blue and green right"
Me, five minutes later:
Supervinh47@worthlessbums should I read up on the physics of bolters or should I spare my blood pressure?
@Supervinh47 i feel like you might understand my frustration, but a lot of it is also domain specific to firearms?
Keith Evans@worthlessbums the lore is self contradictory and derivative, equal parts 2000AD and Dune and Lovecraft and Star Wars. It is fantasy fighting mans in the most excessive ways possoble. It is silly and anyone taking its lore too seriously needs to better ventilate their painting area because the fumes are clearly too concentrated.
Kale @kaynSD @worthlessbums I've been trying to tell this to Bums, but...
It's like Marvel. Any time they put a number of kg's the Hulk can lift, it's always wrong, because... well. They'll change it later.
The number isn't the point.
@kaynSD @worthlessbums Like, you can't have an IP go for 20+ years without the lore becoming wildly divergent and contradictory and useless when examined closely.
It just can't happen - even on single author projects, shit gets fucked up.
@kaynSD @worthlessbums As for GW, 40k's been heading into 'the future is gritty and REAL and DARK' like it's the fucking 90s all over again, and it's just so stale and tepid and boring now.
At least the 80s/90s stuff was colour pops and as though everyone was on some vaguely good drugs and OH NO SPACE LIZARDS (was: re: tyranids used to trade)
@kaynSD @worthlessbums
'In the future there's only war'
'In the future, there's only war, and the good guys are losing'
'In the future, there's only war and the good guys are losing, and oh, yeah, they're not good guys either, there's only losing all round. Sucks.'
'In the future there's only war'
'In the future, there's only war, and the good guys are losing'
'In the future, there's only war and the good guys are losing, and oh, yeah, they're not good guys either, there's only losing all round. Sucks.'
@kaynSD @worthlessbums Those are three VERY different eras of 40k.
You can't write 'there's only war, but maybe the good guys are winning' AND 'there's only war, and everyone's losing' together in the same bundle. The latter requires your population to be constantly starving and the empire to be on the brink of crumbling at any time, and that just doesn't work with the former.
So you're just constantly shifting, and the wiki writers are furiously revising, and the whole thing doesn't work.
@DarkestKale @worthlessbums I prefer 40K around its fringes and details. Its little dives into how a hyper death cult capitalistic world like Necromunda, or it's space dungeon exploration out in Blackstone Fortress. It's cataclysm of logistic silliness around Badab.
I also find myself split entirely when it comes to its focus on characters being Important; having a small cast of dramatis personae is fun, but really dampens your galactic scope.
But its a canvas to play in... and god no none of it is consistent. And I think I start to hate it more the more consistent it tries to be.
@kaynSD @worthlessbums yeah. Galaxy's fuckin huge. Nothing would be consistent
@kaynSD the problem specifically with bolters is that they tried to make it grounded in reality but whoever wrote it doesn't know what they're talking about
i notice this is an ongoing theme throughout 40k lore xD
all the other stuff you said might also be true but that is my specific annoyance here
@kaynSD because i traced the bad bolter design all the fucking way back to early rogue trader
the only real difference is they had stocks back then
@worthlessbums everything has to be the coolest most badass thing possible. The normal defenses are "everything is propaganda", where everything that is written in lore is Imperial lies that makes everything look too good, and "its just a game written by British nerds in the 1980s"
@kaynSD this is my headcanon for a lot of the space marine wank if i'm being honest xD
@worthlessbums it should be. Also the bolter is a weapon regular folk get a hold of regularly; its just the bigger and beefier higher caliber ones designed for power armour that are the ones that are otherwise impossible to lift. The equivalent an MG42 with depleted uranium ammunition. They're just also wasteful as heck and a pain to maintain in the otherwise barely literate Imperium which is why they're generally the purview of the (in setting) rare as heck Space Marines or SoB
Its why the lasgun is the weapon of choice for the Guard. No kickback, no moving parts, pure electronic point and click with interchangeable modular bits when they go wrong. Easy to field strip, easy to train. And unlimited ammo since its solar or heat powered at a pinch. A logisticians dream weapon.