Mastodawn

So... I feel like a total dick for saying this, but 5 out of 7 of my last mentorship sessions have no-showed or cancelled within 10 minutes of their appointments in the past week. Only one person out of those has provided any reasonable reason. I'm really sorry - if this keeps up much longer I am not going to be able to continue the service.

If you aren't respectful of my time, please, please be respectful of the time of others who help you along your career journey. I miss every single Sunday afternoon I could spend with my family for nothing but occasional tips. Some folks wait months for these appointments.

I genuinely want to help people get into cybersecurity! I love helping solve career problems and get people on the right track! But I'm repeatedly left sitting at my desk unable to do anything productive waiting to see if people show up. I'm really shocked at the number of people who are doing this and not even sending an email or a cancellation. It's so dang disrespectful of anyone, whether that be a service worker at a restaurant or a CEO.

Jerry 🦙💝🦙May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I appreciate what you do/have done for the community and i expect everyone will understand if you don't do it any longer.

@jerry I got so many people asking for this help outside conference clinics that I decided to give it a shot, and I'm really kind of shocked and deeply depressed.

Jerry 🦙💝🦙May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I know you write a lot about this but have you thought about a podcast/video cast type format to address common questions/challenges you’ve seen? Might be a way to help more people.

I’ve been thinking about doing something to let people talk about their experiences and interests and ideas to help them get some exposure to potential employers. I’m really discouraged by the discontinuities between companies looking for talent and people looking for work in this field. I have no interest in the recruiting or the like, just want to help people find work and grow.

Nick 'The Viking'May 28, 2023

@jerry @hacks4pancakes

Yes please if folks are squandering your help then find another outlet. This is a deeply frustrating situation.

Lesley you have talents that need to be applied to larger groups. You will apply those to the best of your ability, to as large a group as you can, you've proven this and it's mind boggling. Please do not give up.

Jerry I know you less well.
You obviously see an issue in the career development path specifically in your 'industry', IMO it's endemic to 'all industry'.
The relationship between industry and labor is shifting dramatically and it seems time to address it. LinkedIn is very much not the solution.

I can't really comment on a better format with any authority. I prefer reading to a vlog but I'm more aligned with the philosophy than commenting as a potential customer.

@nlarson830 @jerry Guys, I have a vlog:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOA3-vP1JLw&t=560s

Webinar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUCTejWvOs8&t=1s

Podcast:
https://davidbombal.com/stop-making-these-mistakes-on-your-resume-and-interview/

I run clinics at bsides and community cons around the US.

Infosec Resume No-Nos

YouTube

Nick 'The Viking'May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @jerry

<Bangs head repeatedly on desk>

Sorry for recommending you do something you already do. 😳

Maybe you can trick people and hold them hostage long enough to get the job done.
I'll stand up for the charging money part tho.
_________________
In person clinic is value added beyond your vlog/webinar/podcast, so therefore should cost. Use the money to do more of whatever you think helps most?

Jerry 🦙💝🦙May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @nlarson830 I should have figured you had it covered

Nick 'The Viking'May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @jerry

Please do not take this as antithetical to your cause, but you need to charge money for this service. Then people will show up. Even if you have some protocol of giving 100% of it back to the attendees.

@nlarson830 @jerry I do, from people who can afford it. I don’t get paid either.

Nick 'The Viking'May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @jerry

You need to get paid for providing services. You also need to be paid for providing the opportunity to receive those services.
Your talent for providing services needs to be respected.
The people getting your services need to pay.
Perhaps everyone does not end up paying the same amount, and maybe a select few end up paying nothing at all.

Some people will not respect free content, and the current economic system severely limits more reasonable methods of service/payment than currency.

Andreas, DJ3EI, he/him May 29, 2023

Pre-collect the money before the session, maybe?

@hacks4pancakes @nlarson830 @jerry

Nick 'The Viking'May 29, 2023

@dj3ei @hacks4pancakes @jerry

Perhaps yes.

I thought maybe an ornery cancellation fee but it's trying to get behaviour with a stick and that's not so great.

Thinking like It's an agreed cost of $X for the session, if you no-show or bail last minute you pay. If you show up and engage you get a spin on the wheel to get it free. Or something.

Jerry 🦙💝🦙May 29, 2023

@nlarson830 @dj3ei i am sure @hacks4pancakes has thought of all this before. Let’s stop polluting their notifications.

JiSe May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @jerry I wonder if something like having a "pop up at this time to confirm your time slot, at the start of the day" and giving others option to mark "I will be free on these days for earlier sessions"?

Sucks that others don't respect your time, and most solutions I can come up with will take more time and effort from you.

Ken '|<3ns41' 🌻 🫰🏻May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes @jerry Perhaps there needs to be a screening round, or some demonstrated level of commitment from the requestor, such as a questionnaire with detailed answers that require them to do soul searching and research before meeting with you... Here's my suggestions:

- What is their background? (Including resume or LinkedIn, but also explained in their own words.)
- What independent research have they done, and what insights have they gained from it? What are their favorite books on the topic, or articles that have helped them? (If you collect these answers you could start sharing the common ones to future requestor in advance.)
- What are their short term goals, and how do they align with their longterm goals?
- Where do they feel they are running into problems in achieving them?
- What questions do they have for you, and why do they consider you to be the best person to be asking?

You could also hire a TA a few hours a month to review the submissions and manage the schedule. To cover this, a sign-up fee may also be appropriate, and you could also offer to refund most of the money if they follow through. (like a security deposit)

You may find that helping people plan and ask themselves mindful questions ends up solving the problem they wanted to talk to you about! The Socratic method works.

That Anonymous Coward May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes

It is a pity that there isn't just a waiting list.
Hit a button and it contacts people on the waiting list and the first person who can accept gets the majority of a slot.

@That_AC I don't think calendly has a feature like that. Correct me if I am wrong.

That Anonymous Coward May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes

I honestly do not know, never used it before.
I was just free thinking about ways so your time isn't wasted with no shows and someone who wanted a slot and couldn't get one gets a shot.

Slavery is violence May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes Same with teaching self defense, native plant identification, and religion. Same with organized events that are not teaching.

Shecky - Third Wheel May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes you are and always have been an amazing person. I am so sorry that people do this to you. Your advice and information has been so helpful to myself and many others over the years.

g-clef May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I’ve even seen it happen with paid internships - a few years ago my company ran a paid summer intern program for infosec-interested college kids. One of the two folks we selected was amazing. The other never showed up to their first day and ghosted us entirely.

Simon Bitdiddle May 28, 2023

@gclef @hacks4pancakes

That's the thing that always confuses me; you /know/ someone else is investing time, why would you not make it as easy an experience for them as they would for you?

CaseyDunham May 28, 2023

@simon_bitdiddle @gclef @hacks4pancakes It’s somewhat mind boggling. My company runs a paid internship every summer (and then some) and it’s crazy how little effort I’ve seen some put in or even not show up. We hire a lot of people out of it which is the whole reason we started it. I get maybe it’s not your cup of tea after all, but still.

Simon Bitdiddle May 28, 2023

@CaseyDunham @gclef @hacks4pancakes

Even if it isn't your cup of tea, that's a foot in the door to do something potentially neat or at least discover what sort of career you /don't/ want.

Heck, there's even lateral movement in a company if you can solve a problem or fill a niche the company didn't know it had.

I don't think the 'I ain't going to pay to train an employee that's going to jump jobs' sentiment is a thing anymore in management, is it?

CaseyDunham May 30, 2023

@simon_bitdiddle @gclef @hacks4pancakes Not where I am now but I’ve come across this a lot in my career but mostly at non-infosec places. Very few jobs I’ve had would ever pay for anything.

CaseyDunham May 30, 2023

@simon_bitdiddle @gclef @hacks4pancakes Absolutely. We even have a period of time where they can explore many aspects of the security field depending on what they’re interested in.

birdpoof May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes

I genuinely don't understand how people can make an appointment or "agreed time" with anyone and fail to even communicate ahead of time if they're not showing or will be late. Completely mystified. This is as basic as "please" and "thank you."

colleen May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes maybe do something like charge 100$ to book that you refund if they show up. For those that don’t show up, keep the $$ and offer a scholarship to someone already in infosec? At least there is some kinda payoff in this situation.

Dustin [BusySignal-KE2EFX]May 30, 2023

@hacks4pancakes

meanwhile I debated and worked myself out of scheduling time cuz I know I am not sorted and don't have enough of my shit together and dont want take time away from other people and now I hear they're bailing on getting support and wasting time. uhg. that sucks and I am sorry.

gosh darn damn it - people need to get their respect and manners in order.

holy crap.

Bob Davidson May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes
asking to be respected is not a dick move!

That Anonymous Coward May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes

Do not feel like a dick.
4 of 7 people wasted your time, 1 had a reason.

You set this time aside out of your ever so empty schedule (rolls eyes hard) to provide assistance to people who respond by showing up going, oh that was today?? lol, busy.

They wasted your time, they took one of a few limited spots, and only 1 offered a reason.

Imagine how much they'd be complaining if you did to them what they did to you, but you have more respect for others than they seem to have.

@hacks4pancakes Sorry this keeps happening and I do hope that you continue. People just need to pull their heads out of their asses.

Me, I've always been a bit afraid of asking people for advice. I'm terrified that the answer will be something like: "Wow, complacent much? You should have been working toward this twenty years ago! Now it's too late. Sorry."

@dkh I’d never say that and I’m quite blunt

@hacks4pancakes I would trade a kidney for one of those slots. Damn.

Michael Olsen May 28, 2023

@deweyritten @hacks4pancakes Iknowright?!

@corsairmo @hacks4pancakes

My gut feeling is that there were four people on Lesley's Calendly who let fear make their life choices for them today. Doesn't justify canceling/ghosting, but it's worth acknowledging.

Michael Olsen May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes gaaa this kills me! I literally had looked at your calendly last week wondering if I could sneak a spot in to ask some resume questions...

I'm also obviously sorry for you too, that's so inconsiderate of your time Lesley!

Femto May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes time to add a deposit requirement (that can be waived if a person can be bothered to write a statement as to why they will need a waiver)?

Lars Wikman (OLD, find new)May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes are these sessions free? That can get tricky. You make it accessible to more people but you also get people signing up with no sense of investment.

Sorry you are having that. I ran a paid mentorship thing for a while. Rare to see no-shows there. Rate of no-show has been higher for people with no stake :/

Greg Bell May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I keep thinking there should be a way to either make a deeper bench of mentees for a given slot, or maybe some kind of pre-qualification 1-to-many session people have to join before breaking out into 1-1s.

But that's just my problem-solving brain throwing out ideas for an underspecified scenario no one asked it to work on (as a form of procrastination I think)

Richard Watt May 28, 2023

@hacks4pancakes start asking for deposits? naming and shaming? I'm honestly not sure how you can get around this in a pleasant manner. People at my work don't get away with it because they get spammed with endless baby yoda emoji on Slack until they turn up (and for whatever reason we have a LOT of yoda emoji), but it's harder if they are randoms.

@hacks4pancakes I attended the resume clinic at DerbyCon years ago that, I think, you had a part in? It was a life changer and helped me immensely. I am so thankful for you and your army of volunteers.

pivot May 29, 2023

@XenoPhage @hacks4pancakes Same. The advice you gave me was critical in a multi year career change that finally landed me in a cybersecurity role I love.

Paul Rosen May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I recently had someone cancel on me for a mentorship at the last minute and I was pissed, but I let her reschedule and she canceled again but her excuse was that she was "too depressed". I felt bad about being pissed the first time.

Thom May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes really sorry. Such a basic thing. Bummed for you because you are right, your time is valuable. Hopefully this is a bad group and the next one will be better.

pivot May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes to address the actual issue here, I suspect you don't want to be taking deposits, but perhaps a waiting list that lets people grab an appointment if the person who reserved it doesn't show up after 10 minutes? I'm not familiar with any existing tool to facilitate that, though.
It's super frustrating that bad actors are simultaneously wasting your time, and also making it harder for legitimate folks to get access to your help. I hope it gets better.

EdB May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I wish there was a way for you to pre-screen because anyone serious and committed to infosec would know that this could be the opportunity of a lifetime.

Bex Markwick May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes might be a very terrible suggestion but a few years ago when I was freelance coaching I had a year where lots of people were cancelling lessons super late notice (I got paid after lesson) so I instigated a cancellation fee for whole cost of lesson of cancelled within 24 hours without a legitimate reason (doctor/vet note). It reduced the cancellations and people paid if they still cancelled.

I love what you do for the community and it hurts that people aren't valuing your time. I wonder whether with the reminder email about the session there could be a cancellation policy so at least you get reimbursement for the wasted time? I know you don't charge everyone, but that wouldn't stop a cancellation fee applying?

I hope people stop no showing, because for those who don't your help and support will be invaluable.

JimHudson May 29, 2023

@hacks4pancakes I say this as an outsider of the Infosec community but those people are nuts. They're missing out on tapping into a gold mine of your
experience, knowledge, and encouragement. They're also rude.

IAMHetkey May 30, 2023

@hacks4pancakes : “I miss every single Sunday afternoon I could spend with my family…”

There’s your first mistake right there.

Putting anything or anyone not directly related to your families financial security before your actual family is irresponsible.

Everyone finds their path eventually, neglecting your family for those who aren’t really into it yet is a poor use of your time. Go home.

@Hetkey that’s incredibly presumptuous and a bit rude to say to someone you don’t know.

Jamie Wallace May 31, 2023

@hacks4pancakes people don’t value free things. Consider charging for them then giving scholarships to some.