Mastodawn

Paul Walker May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack paging @fastmail …

sebastian büttrich May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack

Killing off email has long been #gmail 's game.
Same as it has been for #google with independent businesses around the globe.

Jyrgen N May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack
IMO gmail don't kill independent email. I run a mailing list on my own server (with postfix, but my own very simple and AFAIK standards-compliant mailing list software) with about 20 recipients. Every now and then a message bounces for a gmail address. I tell them "get yourself a better email provider" and get on with my life. So far, no one had complained. There is one left with a gmail address.
All in all, gmail just isn't important enough to change what I do.

Jyrgen N May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack
Because it still is work, and some responsibility for the handful of users I have, I have thought of giving up my one private email server and using a commercial service instead. But the only one with the right feature set I have seen so far is @fastmail, and they are in Five Eyes countries. If they were in the EU or in Switzerland, I'd throw my money at them in an instant. Fastmail is brilliant, but sadly in the wrong place from my POV.

@jyrgenn Google pretty much unilaterally sets the email standard given their dominance as an email provider.

I have my own private email server as well (avoid the hack). Most of the issues I’ve run into have been because of gmail.

Jyrgen N May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack
I understand what you are saying, but I don't care as much.
Maybe this is an American thing or one of the anglophone countries, but here in Central Europe they don't appear that dominant. As I said, not important enough to change my ways.

@jyrgenn that makes sense! 🙂 I know a lot of people here in my part of the US that use Gmail and only Gmail for everything.

Jyrgen N May 3, 2023

@avoidthehack
Here in Germany we have Web.de and GMX as popular email providers and the Deutsche Telekom as access provider with email, and the big web hosters 1&1 and Strato, who also provide email for hosted domains. All except DT belong to United Internet, but at least in parts operate separately. Privacy-focused providers Posteo and mailbox.org have gained traction.
So, there is some choice, ranging from free over cheap and decent (1€/month, without ads) to full-service.

Avoid The Hack!May 3, 2023

@jyrgenn I am familiar with mailbox.org!

Glad to hear they are gaining more popularity amongst the masses. Especially like their privacy focus.

@avoidthehack Microsoft is worse in that regard, in my experience. It keeps rejecting the emails coming from our server and kept doing so after we changed its IP a few years later, and it's doing so based on some obscure and non-explained block list, despite us having configured everything correctly. cc @slomo

@vivia @slomo in my experience, Microsoft is better than Gmail. But they both gatekeep email standards, so I understand. Most of my rejections come from Google.

It could be your IP was previously used by spammers. Related, on my last hosting service, Bing insisted my website hosted malware because the previous person on the server in fact hosted malware. It took almost a year to get re listed and cleared as “safe.” 🥲

@avoidthehack @slomo HOW ON EARTH did you get it relisted and cleared as "safe"??? I found no option to contact their support and apply to get it relisted unless I had a Microsoft account, and even if I did, it would probably land me into automated user support instead of support for remote site sysadmins. Now, every time someone gives me a Microsoft email address, I ask them if they have another.

@avoidthehack @slomo Also, it looks like Microsoft blocked our whole hosting provider, unfortunately. But we're very happy with this provider and aren't willing to change.

@vivia @slomo

I ended up having to create a Microsoft account and submitting a ticket to Bing Webmaster Support. I got canned answers, but could see when they would relist the site. It would constantly fall out Bing's index though.

I did a lot of digging into the history of my site's previous IP address. What ultimately ended the repeated de-listing in Bing was indeed switching hosts, though I'm not sure it was host-related. But I had my own issues with them, so was happy to leave.

@vivia @slomo I never figured out what the real issue was though, as they keep it a closely guarded secret.

Given what I learned, it was the IP address. I don't know if you could ask your host to reallocate your IP block, or switch servers within the same host to see if that alleviates the issue.

Edit: Wanted to add my current provider has issues with their site coming up in Bing's index, but I haven't had the same issues.

@avoidthehack @slomo The issue persisted across three different IP addresses we've had in all these years, in completely different address ranges, and one of them is even in a different data centre, in a different country. No luck. I'm at my wits' end here.

@vivia @slomo I know the struggle, I really do. I'm so sorry. :(

You probably have most of this list down:

- Check MX records
- Double check you're not a relay
- If other users have email on your server, ensure they're not mass sending messages
- Consider connecting to Bing Webmaster Tools... yes I know :/ (it can tell you if you've been flagged as malware via Bing/Microsoft)
- Check trend micro security center and others (virustotal)
- Change DMARC to quarantine
- Make sure DNSSEC is enabled

@avoidthehack @slomo Thanks for your suggestions! We have most of the list down, apart from Bing Webmaster Tools. Trend Micro didn't know us (I submitted a request), and virustotal came back squeaky clean. It really looks like we're out of luck because Microsoft somehow hates our host...

UPDATE: Trend Micro just updated us as, not only Safe, but also Noteworthy!

Marc

❄️🦀May 3, 2023

@vivia have you also checked the results of tools like mail-tester.com or DMARC/DKIM/SPF checker? Probably your mails shouldn’t be rated as spam, but maybe you can get a hint.

May 3, 2023

@marc Thanks for the suggestion! Yes, I've used a few of those and all come back clean.

Marc

❄️🦀May 3, 2023

@vivia sorry I couldn’t help. That’s really annoying, if one of the big player put’s you on the naughty list.

May 3, 2023

@marc Thanks a lot for your help nonetheless, it's highly appreciated. It's just annoying that my whole hosting provider is blocked for some reason, but since I'm happy with them, I'd rather keep the big player outside and give my money to the service I'm actually satisfied with.

Pēteris Krišjānis May 2, 2023

@avoidthehack it did this 10 years ago, and I will guess it has not improved much. Said that, it has not managed to kill other email services.
Running your own email host is not easy these days though.

BrBr.Prime May 3, 2023

@avoidthehack "gmail, killing 'independent' email services for more than 20 years."

'independent' email has been doing a fine job of shooting itself in the head by adding needless complication.

The only thing Hotmail, Gmail, & others made it easier for regular non-tech people to use email without dealing with 'independent' email server bullshittery.

railing against 'gmail' is you saying you want to gatekeep technology by raising the bar high enough that 'normal' people would not have email

Avoid The Hack!May 3, 2023

@bryanbrake not at all. If anything, gmail does the gatekeeping, using their dominance as a provider to unilaterally set standards. Email is a decentralized protocol, but Google owns so much of the share everyone *has* to bend to their will to play.

This limits users’ choice in the long run - another good example is Chromium.

There are many many many independent email providers outside of gmail that exist outside of self-hosting. Many of them to struggle with sending mail to gmail.