The New American LeftMar 10, 2023
Chad Loder

The fact that Americans are risking their lives traveling to a region of Mexico controlled by cartels in order to obtain healthcare says a lot more about the USA than it does about Mexico.

[edit: The fact that many people carry around value hierarchies and judgment regarding other people's medical procedures is ALSO very interesting]

Mar 9, 2023 at 11:51pmWeb
Show threadFardels BearMar 9, 2023

@chadloder

Mexican cartels are cheaper than American ones.

Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 9, 2023
@chadloder I agree with your overall statement but in this case I think the folks who were traveling were unaware of the danger and were seeking elective cosmetic surgery. This doesn't mean that thousands of US citizens don't routinely travel to Mexico for dental and necessary surgical procedures that would bankrupt them in the US: they do. It's just that this case was more of a tragic circumstance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Show threadJohn BreenMar 9, 2023
@isotope239 @chadloder Yes, absolutely, in this case "elective cosmetic surgery." Why...
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @isotope239 Elective cosmetic surgery is healthcare.
Show threadJohn BreenMar 10, 2023
@chadloder @isotope239 No, it's not. You are taking a risk for a "cosmetic" reason, by definition. Your life is not at stake, until you decide surgery is worth the risks for "cosmetic" reasons. Different things.
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @isotope239 For many people, "cosmetic" surgery is literally life-saving. Stop this nonsense.
Show threadJohn BreenMar 10, 2023
@chadloder @isotope239 Please describe what you mean - if it's "life-saving", it's not "cosmetic".
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @isotope239 Gender-affirming surgery, for one. Rhinoplasty can improve breathing and apnea, a major source of heart attack risk. Breast reduction surgery. etc etc etc
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@chadloder @jab01701mid Good point, although that's significant enough that I'm not sure it genuinely falls into the "cosmetic" category. The changes to the person's life as a result, to my way of thinking anyway, represent something deeper than merely "cosmetic".
Show threadLukakoMar 10, 2023
@isotope239 @chadloder @jab01701mid It should not matter if a surgery is cosmetic or not. As humans we deserve our full bodily autonomy and a society that takes care of those needs. Preparations, surgery day, and aftercare still all require healthcare to be involved, and should not be denied to a person because of an arbitrary line between "cosmetic" and "necessary".
Show threadTopher 🌱🐧💚Mar 10, 2023

It doesn't. It's classified as "reconstructive" or "medically-necessary."

Even with something like treating varicose veins, there is a distinction typically made between strictly cosmetic and medically necessary.

I do think this is beside the larger point being made here, but no, there is a valid terminology distinction here that some are confusing.

@isotope239 @chadloder @jab01701mid

Show threadArtemis13AthenaMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid y, @chadloder @isotope239 a good example would be rhinoplasty for a deviated septum. Rhinoplasty, a nose job, is considered cosmetic even if needed to correct a problem.
Show threadMaggie MacIntyreMar 10, 2023

@jab01701mid @chadloder @isotope239 I lived for 8 years with one breast after cancer treatment.

It cratered my self esteem, affected my confidence meeting people, job hunting. It was uncomfortable. There are no one-breast bras. There is no clothing for that shape. A million little cuts chipped away at my self-esteem every day for 8 years.

Last year I finally had an "elective" "cosmetic" mastectomy. Would that breast ever have killed me? No. Did that surgery save my life? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Show threadOwl the Gnus...Mar 10, 2023
@inkstainedmags @jab01701mid @chadloder @isotope239
Congratulations!
Someone in my family did exactly the same thing. She felt free again and was happy she did it.
Show threadGraydonMar 10, 2023

@jab01701mid @chadloder @isotope239 "Cosmetic" covers reconstructive surgeries. You aren't about to die, so it's not essential in medical taxonomies.

Putting your face back after the car accident, bear attack, etc. allows you to interact socially again and be a human, well, sure, but that has nothing to do with your metabolic capacity for life, so it's not officially essential.

Taxonomies always lie. Which lies is an important question.

People should have the bodies they want to have.

Show threadAngry CentristMar 10, 2023
@chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 Whose life has been saved by a tummy-tuck? (that's the specific procedure in context)
Show threadJLSigmanMar 10, 2023

@dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 She's a Black woman. If she doesn't look absolutely professional and perfect, she will be overlooked for jobs and promotions.

That is life saving.

Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@jlsigman @dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid Race and gender issues aside, I think there may be another element at work in this situation. Less than half of all Americans have a passport and even quite a few who do tend to think that they're in a sort of "American bubble", especially if they've never traveled outside the U.S. These folks were young and I imagine they were thinking of the trip as something fun, but didn't consider the consequences or that their citizenship wouldn't protect them.
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisMar 10, 2023

@isotope239

Dang, you seem *really* determined to find some reason, any reason, these (checks notes) victims of a violent crime were bad/wrong/at fault.

It's like you're working overtime to find a justification for being unsympathetic for their plight.

@jlsigman @dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid

Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@siderea @jlsigman @dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid I wish to apologize if I gave the impression that I blamed the kidnap victims for their plight. I don't, what worries me is the medical tourism to dangerous areas. People see these online advertisements for inexpensive surgical procedures that downplay the risks. NPR has a good analysis of the problem: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/08/1161888974/medical-tourism-mexico-americans
Show threadSiderea, Sibylla BostoniensisMar 10, 2023

@isotope239

Wow, that article does *not* back up your "concern".

There are actual problems in the world to be concerned about. Maybe how Americans manage to overcome obstacles access more affordable healthcare is not one of them. Trying to foment a moral panic about medical tourism while half this country tries to criminalize healthcare is a bit something.

@jlsigman @dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid

Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@siderea @jlsigman @dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid It's the place, not the procedure, that poses the risk, no moral panic intended. Folks who aren't that familiar with the general situation in Mexico may not be aware of the various precautions that should be taken, such as registering your vehicle so you can use Mexican license plates to lower your risk of being a target. Some Mexican medical practices also offer an escort service to safely bring a patient back and forth across the border.
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@dkbgeek @jab01701mid @isotope239 Depends, does her appearance affect her work prospects? Just one example. Not you sitting here in judgment of Black women
Show threadAngry CentristMar 10, 2023
@chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 Declaring that I'm "sitting in judgment of black women" is a ludicrous, acrobatic stretch about a comment on you running wildly afield of the context, but you do you.
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@dkbgeek @jab01701mid @isotope239 Thus proving the maxim that Every self-described centrist is a right wing asshole.
Show threadMattMar 10, 2023
@dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 time to block this “centrist”
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@dkbgeek I don’t know that your comment has anything to do with race, but it does show either a complete ignorance for anyone else’s issues or an arrogant judgement that only conveys that your a total asshole. I’m sure you’ve had issues that we might think are no big deal but completely took their toll on you; everyone does. You’re focused on the procedure instead of why someone would risk so much to get it done. Simply, you don’t know her struggle so don’t be a dick
Show threadAngry CentristMar 12, 2023
@twitterreject Judgmental asshole, check thy mirror.
Show threadLukakoMar 10, 2023
@dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 Many lives have been saved by surgeries that address issues such as body dsymorphia or gender affirmation. Talk to trans people for anecdotal proof. My surgery has improved my self-image and confidence drastically while steering me away from my darkest thoughts. Mental health is just as important as physical health unless you think those who kill themselves due to dysphoria deserve it.
Show threadAngry CentristMar 10, 2023
@Lukako @jab01701mid @isotope239
Well, I guess high-minded Chad blocked me after issuing his ad-hominem screed... but of course he thinks *I* am the asshole. 🤷
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@dkbgeek @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 while it may not seem like much to you, a flat stomach may be the thing she has struggled with for years. Maybe she was gonna lose a job or needed it to get a job? It’s $5000 for that procedure here. People don’t just get plastic surgery on a whim, they typically struggle with the body problem for years and it screws with their self esteem tremendously before they get surgery. It’s a big deal and even if people choose a shitty way, it’s still big deal
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @chadloder I understand the distinction, but with these folks, I suspect they simply didn't understand how much of a risk they were taking. Perhaps they should have done some research over at the State Dept.'s website before going, but not everyone is that diligent.
Show threadCaylaMar 10, 2023
@isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder
Hi I've been to the cit in question, I used to live close enough to it to take regular day trips, it isn't that dangerous especially for US citizens. Thanks
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@Kaminara @isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder they just put a travel warning on that place recently. Your past trips are irrelevant
Show threadCaylaMar 12, 2023
@twitterreject @isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder
Well I guess my friends going over this weekend doesn't count?
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@Kaminara @isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder guess not. I’m just going by what the state dept said. You do you
Show threadCaylaMar 12, 2023
@twitterreject @isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder
Understandable, I just want to point out those aren't always accurate, but I do admit if you aren't familiar it may be a good starting point
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@Kaminara @isotope239 @jab01701mid @chadloder I was in El Paso the year things exploded in Juarez and now I’m in San Diego. I always check with the locals if I’m there. I check with state dept to see what I could be getting into, but the locals are always my final check. Never could make it to Juarez bc they all said to go with someone and nobody would escort me bc of threat level. That was 2008 I think, I still won’t go to TJ w/out a local for help
Show threadTurboQuokkaMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @chadloder @isotope239 There are a whole bunch of things that insurance companies deem “cosmetic” purely so they don’t have to cover them. Many of these things are, in fact, life saving to the people who need them.
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@turboquokka @jab01701mid @chadloder I absolutely agree.
Show threadKen Kinder Mar 10, 2023
@chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 it’s healthcare in that it is done in a hospital, by a doctor. It’s elective in that you don’t need a facelift and tummy tuck to live a happy, productive life.
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 12, 2023
@bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 you might. My career depended on me having a full head of hair. If I was going bald, my happiness may have very well counted on me having “elective cosmetic” surgery. There’s a million more surgeries than just the “body touch up” one’s you’re mentioning. I dated a woman who lost almost 200 lbs. She would’ve been one giant blob of skin if she didn’t have plastic surgery. People typically suffer for years w/self esteem being crushed before surgery
Show threadKen Kinder Mar 14, 2023
@twitterreject @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 you’re reaching here. Whatever the case, find me a country where hair plugs are covered by universal healthcare.
Show threadChad LoderMar 14, 2023
@bouncing @twitterreject @jab01701mid @isotope239 Brazil, South Korea, a handful of other countries subsidize cosmetic surgery. Hair loss is a diagnosable medical condition, treatment to slow or reverse hair loss should be covered more widely tbh
Show threadJohn BreenMar 14, 2023
@chadloder @bouncing @twitterreject @isotope239 Sorry, disagree, hornet's nest again. Diagnosable != Single-payer healthcare benefit in all cases, can't.
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 16, 2023
@bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 I don’t know what they cover and don’t, however it can be a tax write off here in the US and alopecia caused 1/4 of the country to turn against Chris Rock after getting smacked for comments about it with Jada Smith. Every situation is different.
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 16, 2023
@bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 not all plastic surgery cases are as simple as you make them to be where they are based on pure vanity. I don’t know why that bs judgmental narrative is promoted but while it’s the more common reason on a handful of procedures, nearly every procedure has people who’s overall health and well-being depend on it. Even the “vanity” ones tend to have people who have obsessed over it for years and have severe insecurities It’s not an impulse decision
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 16, 2023
@twitterreject @bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid I never intended to trivialize the motives of the victims. However her surgery was termed, the point I was originally trying to make was that it's probable that they were unaware of the risk they took in going to Matamoros. It's likely that the surgery was arranged through one of dozens of medical tourism websites which tend to make the event look like a spa holiday and which don't dwell on the potential risk of violence in certain locations.
Show threadGurtbeef RobeMar 16, 2023
@isotope239 @bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid that comment was directed at the other guy who commented about hair plugs. Sorry for the confusion
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 16, 2023
@twitterreject @bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid Any way you look at it, the situation was tragic, I feel so sorry for the victims. From various commentary made by their families, I gather that the trip was intended to be almost a kind of holiday. They just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Show threadsxpertMar 14, 2023
@twitterreject @bouncing @chadloder @jab01701mid @isotope239 in which case it's labelled "reconstructive surgery" and not "cosmetic surgery".
same goes with boob implants for people that had breast cancer.
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @chadloder I can't really judge the folks who were attacked because they were seeking something cosmetic rather than an absolutely necessary procedure. Brazil has a huge "medical tourist" industry based largely on cosmetic procedures, just as an example. Having something cosmetic done might be a real life enhancer for some people.
Show threadCaylaMar 10, 2023
@jab01701mid @isotope239 @chadloder
Elective doesn't mean unnecessary but that it isn't immediate, I'm having elective surgery next month if wasn't able to get it, it would end up killing me
Show threadChad LoderMar 10, 2023
@isotope239 I agree, nobody expects to get gunned down in the street on a trip for healthcare! The US State Department has a Level 4 "Do Not Travel" warning for Tamaulipas due to violent crime and kidnapping. That said, they also have Level 4's for Michoacan, Colima, Zacatecas, Sinaloa, and Guerrero, like nearly half the country. People aren't going to stop traveling there anytime soon, there are a lot of businesses with offices on both sides of the border and there's a lot of people with family on both sides as well!
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@chadloder I worked for years at a bank just across the Juarez - El Paso border, in sight of the main crossing. It was commonplace to see folks crossing over to the oral surgeon just on the banks of the Rio Grande. The cartels weren't as powerful then as they are now, but it was still plenty dangerous. But what choice do some folks have? Pay a US oral surgeon several thousand dollars to remove your wisdom teeth or a couple hundred to have the same procedure and all you have to do is cross over?
Show threadisotope239 🥸💻📚 🇺🇦Mar 10, 2023
@chadloder Now, if (for example) everyone in the US was covered by Medicare (or some similar healthcare support), you'd have fewer people endangering themselves just to get some decent healthcare.
Show threadCelebrate Billionaire PainMar 9, 2023
@chadloder also important to note: cartels may operate in Mexico but they're able to exist purely because of the US drug war and funded almost exclusively by sales in the US. They're not so much Mexican cartels as they are American drug suppliers stationed overseas. We could bankrupt them overnight by changing our drug policy to make them obsolete and create a better world for everyone in the process, but instead we use them as examples of scary brown people.
Show threadThe New American LeftMar 10, 2023
@chadloder I cannot believe that hasn’t been more of the conversation, I mean I can totally believe it, but still.
Show threadTed GarrisonMar 10, 2023
@chadloder It also says a lot about the smarts of the American's that decide they want a tummy tuck, but want it on the cheap...
Show threadNate TharpMar 10, 2023
@Tedgarrison3 @chadloder “On the cheap” describes nearly any medical procedure when it’s performed outside of the U.S.