fruechtchen [en] (he, white)
daniel s.you can't reform this
people who insist that police reform remains possible after countless failed efforts would never afford the same degree of opportunity to regular people who break the law. you screw the pooch x number of times and they'll write you off forever. only cops get infinite do-overs.
Ray Gulick, he/him/wtf ๐บ๐ฆ โ๐@selfagency
LEO are trained to fear for their safety and react with deadly force, particularly if the detainee is a black male.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can 'untrain' fear that's been drilled into LEO via training and culture.
Nina Wilson@rgulick @selfagency You can re-train them out of this but it is a bit like getting someone off drugs then putting them back with their mates that are still using. You have to re-train the whole force and you have to convince seasoned cops that de-escalation can work in many cases (it will never work with all of them). You have to do this in parallel with getting rid of the ACAB attitude in the public (or certain sectors of the public).
@NinaWilson @selfagency
That doesn't sound like retraining has a realistic shot at succeeding.
Honestly, I think armed cops should not be making traffic stops (unless they're in pursuit of robbery or murder suspects, perhaps), and they should not be detaining people who are not actively engaged in criminal conduct.
I think we need to make traffic violations, vagrancy, and other low-level issues the responsibility of an unarmed force (similar to UK).
@rgulick @selfagency But there will be occasions when someone is speeding or runs a red light because they're getting away from a crime and they have a gun. So an unarmed cop gets shot. It is extremely rare in the UK for criminals to carry guns, even more rare than police doing traffic stops.
Also, note that in in several high profile cases, men being arrested have been killed without guns. Not having a gun doesn't prevent cops being violent.
Also, note that in in several high profile cases, men being arrested have been killed without guns. Not having a gun doesn't prevent cops being violent.
CaptainSmartass@rgulick @NinaWilson @selfagency we need to just disarm police entirely. Keep a SWAT team around for special occasions, but they never leave the station on patrol and only respond to specific incidents.
Rank and file police cannot be trusted with firearms. Period.
@captainsmartass @rgulick @selfagency It is almost that in the UK. Diplomatic protection, airports, nuclear plants have armed police. Everywhere else there are highly trained armed response teams that drive around with guns in a secure box. The guns don't come out unless there's an incident that requires them.
I get where you're coming from with them not leaving the station, but that has 2 problems. They'll get bored and over-react when they get let out, the criminals know the response time.
I get where you're coming from with them not leaving the station, but that has 2 problems. They'll get bored and over-react when they get let out, the criminals know the response time.
@NinaWilson @rgulick @selfagency good point about the response time and the team getting bored. I amend my motion.
Big Head Tales@rgulick @NinaWilson @selfagency
I don't disagree, but I'm not sure this would work in the US with the plague of guns everywhere.
As much as I agree that heavily armed military cops are a murder waiting to happen in every traffic stop, I don't want to see officers become sitting ducks.
Ya Boy@NinaWilson @rgulick @selfagency
Extremely naive. Also punching down and to the left.
Cops sign up to be cops because they want a license to kill and abuse. The term ACAB exists because it is a universal truth.
You think youโre going to train empathy lacking narcissistic sociopaths toโฆ not be?
To what end? They exist to keep the rich rich and the poor poor, incarcerated and dead.
@Hanso @NinaWilson @selfagency
Right! I don't think you can train people who've become sociopaths to not be sociopaths. Even intensive psychiatry would a long-shot.
@rgulick @Hanso @selfagency There'll be some you can't retrain, not denying that. But the training helps identify them so they can be got rid of.
@NinaWilson @rgulick @Hanso there's somewhere around 1.5 million cops in the u.s., good luck with that
@selfagency @rgulick @Hanso Yes, huge job. But probably best to start with smaller forces. More chance of making a noticable change. Also, very important to train new recruits right.
@NinaWilson @Hanso @selfagency
I still think retraining is not how you deal with sociopathy.
@rgulick @Hanso @selfagency Sorry, should have been clear, the sociopaths are the ones that can't be retrained.
Coach Pฤแนini ยฎ@NinaWilson @rgulick @Hanso @selfagency a psychological screening for new recruits > training.
Institutional culture only changes one funeral at a time.
@paninid @rgulick @Hanso @selfagency Not sure if psychological screening can pick out all the problems. Certainly much more vetting in terms of talking to people that know them, checking what they were like at school etc. and properly investigating any complaints against them once they're in.
@Hanso @rgulick @selfagency I've been on the receiving end of police violence and seen them turn away from violence of others they approve of. I'm not in the slightest bit naive. There are good cops and they may be few and far between, more in some places than others. But part of the purpose of retraining is to pick out those that are in for all the wrong reasons and get rid of them whilst changing the attitudes of those it is possible to change.
Otherwise what? No police at all?
Otherwise what? No police at all?
aditya ๐ฑ
mischief brewer@selfagency there are no good cops. The ones that might be considered "good" either don't get hired (pictured) or quit quickly
FoolishOwl@mbrewer @selfagency Nor is this new. The fact that "good cops" are weeded out has been known for generations.
You can't talk of the police being corrupted because there was never a time police were anything but evil.
Stuart (moved)@foolishowl @mbrewer @selfagency
Oh what a sad and, dare I say, ill informed post.
I am in the jurisdiction of London's Metropolitan police who have an appalling record of corruption and abuse. I've supported campaigns to right wrongs. The current culture issues are not exaggerated.
Yet I have met numerous good police going well beyond their duty. They are there - or you should be doing everything to get them there.
The fight against corruption can only win if we find and empower them.
@stuart @foolishowl @mbrewer The U.S. and the U.K. are vastly different countries. The U.S. has ~1,000 killings by police officers every year. The U.K. has ~3.
@selfagency @stuart @mbrewer A major influence on UK police was the Peterloo Massacre; they were intended to suppress labor actions and mass unrest with more limited violence than the army. But they grew out of strikebreakers and were informed by the practices of colonial occupation forces.
US police grew out of strikebreakers, slave patrols, and genocidal frontier militias.
Arguably US police are worse, but UK police are not good.
@foolishowl @selfagency @mbrewer
I would bet few in the police will even know of the Peterloo massacre. The miner's strike in the 1980s is more relevant.
Even that is less problematic than 'lad's culture' which generates misogyny and racism plus the demographic and the necessity of having to deal/trade with criminal elements is a breeding ground for corruption and worse.
It will always be a fight. But giving up is not a civilised option.
@stuart @selfagency @mbrewer "Civilized" is another problematic term. Cities existed for millennia without police. "Reform" and "corruption" imply that there is some good form of policing that used to exist but has been distorted or lost. That isn't the case, and that's why I brought up the Peterloo Massacre. There has never been a time when the police served a good purpose.
@foolishowl @selfagency @mbrewer
Cities still operate police free most of the time. The last time I interacted with the police was when they rescued my senile aunt from a busy road. With care and consideration. The complaint here is there isn't enough of them to go after petty criminals.
Crime wasn't invented by the police. The Bow Street Runners (1749) were founded to take enforcement out of the hands of unregulated private citizens (vigilantes).
@stuart @selfagency @mbrewer According to the police, there are never enough police.
The NYPD has 35,000 officers and 15,000 staff, and an annual budget of $5.4 billion. They still complain they don't have enough.
The Bow Street Runners did not exist in รatalhรถyรผk in 7400 BCE, nor in Teotihuacan in 100 BCE, nor in countless other cities over thousands of years across the world.
@foolishowl @selfagency @mbrewer
We know little about social organisation & control in those ancient cities. It's brave to use them as exemplars of how to run cities a magnitude or two greater in the 21st century. Wow, you wouldn't try to police New York like London or vice versa.
Using the police to achieve political objectives and allowing the systemic support of misogyny, racism and corruption, however, is a universal issue.
@stuart @selfagency @mbrewer The point, again, is "corrupt" is misleading, because it implies there's a proper form for police that they have been corrupted from. Police and policing have a relatively recent origin. There's no good model of policing to return to.
The other problems are universal because they are the primary functions of police.
@foolishowl @selfagency @mbrewer
I agree that some of the stuff they do you may regard as 'corrupt'. However, I was using the term where they acted against the law for monetary gain or to harm others.
I also agree there is no golden past to return to. Even if there was it wouldn't cope with now or the future. A good model will always be a work in progress.
@selfagency @foolishowl @mbrewer
Re the imbalance in killing citizens is a function of the respective number on guns. A US cop must fear that they are always under threat of being shot. Hence, unsurprisingly they are more trigger happy. I would, you probably would.
So before you can expect better from the police you need to work on reducing the threat to them. Until the NRA becomes a proscribed terrorist organisation I guess there is no hope.
@stuart @selfagency @mbrewer This is police propaganda. US police don't face particularly great threats of violence, and their rates of injury and death on the job are considerably lower than for workers in construction or outdoor labor.
RDS (shawphd on Twitter)@stuart @foolishowl @mbrewer @selfagency That has little bearing on what happens in US police departments.
@shawrd773 @foolishowl @mbrewer @selfagency
This thread is about all cops and police being bad per se. There was no specificity about a particular police department, state or country. Problems and solutions vary and we all have much to learn from each other.
Just abolishing policing is certainly a brave policy. The alternate is to find ways of curbing its excesses. Do we have a real choice?
@stuart @shawrd773 @foolishowl @mbrewer yeah the real choice is not to spend billions of dollars annually to arm people who have a penchant for killing minorities with military grade weapons and instead slash their budgets and reinvest that money in things like mental health resources, peer mediation counselors, after school programs, and other things proven to reduce violence.
@stuart @shawrd773 @foolishowl @mbrewer if you want to reduce crime like theft, reduce poverty. if you want to reduce crime like murder, reduce the availability of guns. if you want to reduce gendered violence, reduce socially acceptable toxic masculinity. we have solutions for every problem. but the real problem is: we only ever throw cops at our problems instead of actual solutions โ especially when solutions involve disrupting capitalists raking in money hand over fist.
Anarchist Quotes (@[email protected])
A man won't steal, ordinarily, unless that which he steals is something he cannot as easily get without stealing; in liberty the cost of stealing would involve greater difficulties than producing, and consequently he would not be apt to steal. -- Voltairine de Cleyre #anarchism #quote #bot
@selfagency @shawrd773 @foolishowl @mbrewer
Absolutely agree.
The only question is how you achieve it. Abolishing the police and presumably relying on anarchy might work. I'd prefer a less risky route even if it took longer and was less complete.
Pelikans
John PanzerReimagine and re-do.
Reboot and re-install.
@selfagency Any fight has risk so de-escalation is always the better option. Just because you are trying to de-escalate doesn't mean you can't be ready to use force if needed. Smaller weaker people do need to be more decisive if force is needed, but only once it because needed. Prior to that it is safer for them to de-escalate and they stand more chance doing that because they are seen as less of a threat.
@NinaWilson @selfagency Seriously. Women deescalate threatening situations all. the. time. Weโre practically trained in it from childhood.
@shawrd773 @selfagency I did mean to put that in the post, women are very good at de-escalating.
EVHaste@selfagency This is legitimately horrifying. I canโt say surprising, and that makes it worse.
B.
ShaneLee@selfagency your experience is telling - it should raise questions around Police Training
@Sp2962 not my experience
highly principled invertebrate@selfagency I just don't see them as useful in continued separate existence as a profession, especially in the USA. They've no "duty to protect" so them having guns and other weapons which in theory are given to protect the public, hold no validity and thusly should be barred. Their rate of solving crimes, especially violent ones is extremely low for even the % of reports they actually get. The only activity they do well which is very dangerous for them is directing traffic in bad weather & natural disaster & other emergency conditions, which is where they could be better replaced by steadily paid road maintenance teams. Forensics teams - medical, chemical and financial units mainly, with counselors really solving what few cases do get closed with finding who did wrongs, none of them needing to be trained militarily as cops are and if left to it, they'd in all likelihood solve more crimes without the baggage of the pigs. Yes nuisance laws should be eliminated before they're abolished to prevent them just switching to private contractor work as security guards for big corporations but beyond that, sheriff's can still help in doing arrests of any and all violent criminals, as de-escalation is naturally brought back over the military gap. #ACAB
SocialistStan@BrahmaBelarusian @selfagency We don't need the pigs at all, in the rare event force needs to be used to solve something in society the civilian population in the Us is more than equipped and capable. We keep us safe.
@SocialistStan @selfagency yes, that's basically what I've said in a longer & more detailed form.
Catmama ๐
Statmonkey ๐Reforming the police won't work because it is only a band-aid solution to a much larger problem. While there are certain steps that can be taken to improve police practices and accountability, these reforms alone will not address the systemic racism and discrimination that exists in many police departments.
Police reform is not a one-size-fits-all solution, and different communities have different needs that must be addressed in order for meaningful change to take place.
Kevin LaRose,aka Grumpasaurus@selfagency Wow, just wow. I was wondering why the murder suspects in Memphis kept shouting get on the ground when he was on the ground. Theyโve got those psychological tricks down pat, donโt they? How immensely depressing.
AntonVonCarmo@selfagency if police are not involved in the reform, you'll see the remaining good ones leave. It's not like it's a great job
@carmoda ๐ bye bye
@selfagency being blocked from a instance with 10 users. devastating.