If you insist that people learn to code in order to use technology, I'm going to insist that you grow your own flax, do the retting, spin it, weave it, and sew it before you're allowed to wear pants.

I'm saying this as a person who is going to buy a fleece from a local shepherd and skirt it, wash it, sort it, comb it, spin it, ply it, dye it with local plants, and knit a sweater with it.

If I acted like some software developers, not only would I do this for myself, I would demand that anyone who ever complained about a sweater do the same. Not just to end up with a sweater, but to even *talk* about sweaters.

* this does not grant you exemptions from any codes of conduct that require pants.
@akareilly
In my case, since I wore dresses and tights right up until 6th grade, I’m pretttty sure it does. šŸ˜‰
@akareilly Man... I was hoping we'd reached some sort of agreement
@akareilly Your FOSS rants really are the best rants šŸ˜‚ā¤ļø
@sindarina I am very much back on my bullshit and there may be puppets.
@akareilly Looks like you went viral since, too, I am seeing it being boosted all over the place šŸ˜„

@akareilly Consumer level software shouldn't require programming knowledge. Even professional software, depending on its purpose. Same for clothing, as you say!!

I do think there's an argument for teaching coding in school, because in many ways, it's a form of literacy that massively opens doors for a wide variety of jobs.

Having said that, even if you know how to do one type of programming, it doesn't mean you can do everything.

1/2

@akareilly I'm a physicist and my programming skills are limited to doing data analysis, basic simulations, and instrument control. Oh, and WordPress websites. I don't know how to write a phone app or Word or car firmware or anything else. There's zero need for me to know ANYTHING about how these things are coded in order to use them.

2/2

@akareilly raise sheep. ill-tempered sheep. get to shearing!

@mlf

Also there's no documentation. Real shepherds, shearers, spinners, and knitters don't comment their code^H^H^H information on how any if this is done, so good luck. You'll end up with both a sweater and intact knees if you're hard enough.

@akareilly Just read the sweater and work back from there! Jeez, people today really want everything handed to them.
@mlf @akareilly Ugh, this purl is illegible write-only code. And don't get me started on the cable management.
@mlf @akareilly At least it's single threaded.
Core rope memory - Wikipedia

@akareilly @mlf !!! TIL. Why had I never heard of this?

@siderea @mlf

Barber, E: Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years : Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times also links the author to the Friedmans, who are relevant to the history of secret communication: Fagone, Jason: The woman who smashed codes: a true story of love, spies, and the unlikely heroine who outwitted America's enemies

@akareilly @siderea @mlf I don't really respect coders that store their programs on ready-made hard drives, that's just cheating, real coders use harder drives
https://youtu.be/JcJSW7Rprio
Harder Drive: Hard drives we didn't want or need

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

YouTube

@siderea @mlf @akareilly

Write-only code is one I'm going to introduce to my team.

@Enema_Cowboy @mlf @akareilly In fairness, not original to me. I don't remember where I picked up that pearl about purl. I mean perl.
@siderea @Enema_Cowboy @mlf @akareilly
The best fiber puns are the ones that loom at us.
@akareilly

Yes, except not ironically. Knowing how to craft and repair clothes is a pretty good thing.

@Sandra

Absolutely! It doesn't take expensive supplies to start mending, and there are many resources online now.

I am actually capable of doing all of these things using Neolithic tech. Apocalypse skills, sorted.

There are darning looms, tablet weaving supplies, rigid heddle looms, backstrap looms, spinning wheels, knitting machines, knitting belts and pins, sewing machines, and all sorts of things here.

@akareilly

I never worked with textiles professionally, but in school we were taught braiding, carding, spinning, weaving, knitting, darning, and crocheting. This started before we were taught grammar and multiplication. I appreciate being shown those things because it's good to not get too abstracted from the levers we're using to interact with the world.

Things like math and logic and writing and physics and drawing and all kinds of things got way easier after I had started learning to code. The same goes for the spiritual or psychological experience. Coding (probably better known as meta-thinking, thinking about thinking) is an amazing foundation for other fields.

(On the other hand I hate modern, commercial tech šŸ’šŸ»ā€ā™€ļø)

@Sandra

We didn't get fiber arts in school but I was lucky enough to have computers at school and at home.

3-2-1 Contact magazine had BASIC code for games that we typed into a Commodore64. Now there are fun, visual tools to get kids started.

Everyone should have the opportunity to code.

It's also OK if kids find that boring and do something else.

@akareilly

"It's also OK if kids find that boring and do something else"

If you also feel that way about writing, reading, math, politics, history, physics then that's food for thought for me, I'd have to think about to what extent the grown-up world should insist on teaching things. Interesting dilemma šŸ’šŸ»ā€ā™€ļø

If it's coding specifically then I'm not onboard.

@Sandra

Kids should have a *basic* understanding of things that they find boring. With any new skill, there's a certain level of learning that many people need to reach to know whether they really enjoy it or not. If someone gets to that point and can program something basic, or even reaches professional competence, and decides they don't like code? That's fine. The point is to try.

Then, programmers should understand that "can't be bothered" isn't "can't".

@Sandra

Just like the kids who don't make all their own clothes. They still get to wear clothes and have preferences.

That's what I find weird about open source software developers not taking feedback, and responding to any requests with "just fork it". If you say "OK, stop buying clothes if you don't like what you have" the answer might be "but I don't have time to learn this! I wouldn't have time to code! I could learn but I need to make software instead!"

@akareilly

I hate programming so much 😭

People don't get that since I'm the world's best programmer. They're like "why don't you program more?" Because I hate it.

As far as open source software developers not taking feedback specifically, I've argued against that refusal:

https://idiomdrottning.org/user-dev-dialectics

So in that specific fight, I'm with you.

Learning the basics of how code works and how to code simple things is all I'm asking; as you point out, the difference between knowing how it's constructed vs having the time, resources, skill level to do everything from scratch always.

Code can also be copied so there's a degree of cooperation and standing on each other's shoulders that's possible in code that's not possible to the same extent in textile:

https://idiomdrottning.org/mittens

I thought we were talking about something else. When I'm like "everyone should learn how to code", it's not to give credence to your basic GitHub issues sourpuss. I'm with you on that one. Instead, it's a reaction to the veneer of network path dependent silos like Instagram, Hacker's News, Facebook, YouTube, how our infastructure is being gatekept by modern-day Priests of Ra who are stacking their castle walls on layers and layers and layers of abstraction and toolkits, locking everything down and wrapping your basic everyday tools in hard plastic and planned obsolescence. It's a celebration of how coding can be a foundation for other fields and philosophies, how it can help us reason about our interactions with nature, others, and ourselves. How market capitalism is a broken program and how we need the best minds of our generation to set things straight before we burn the world. šŸ¤·šŸ»ā€ā™€ļø
User/Dev dialectics in FOSS

@Sandra

Oh yes, we are in vehement agreement!

@Sandra

I can write a grant for software development in 72 hours after begging the devs to give me at least bullet points for weeks. The grant will meet requirements, have no typos, and will usually win. I've raised millions for open source projects.

I detest grant writing with the fire of a thousand suns.

@Sandra @akareilly Well said! I've always felt basic competence with computing, including coding, should be taught as as a liberal art - in the same way that traditional liberal arts curricula teach reading, writing, mathematics, and science. Add computing to the list. It's not that everyone should develop professional-level abilities in all of these fields, but everyone would benefit from a basic understanding -- enough to know when they may want to learn more, and a foundation to build on.
@Sandra @akareilly At this point, it's a matter of literacy, similar to being familiar with statistics. And this seems like it will be more true in the future. My daughter is in college, and her marine science program's "computational foundations" class requires her to learn python, because that is a very common way analysis of data is done.
@akareilly you gonna pay for those changes if you’re not making them?

@sickmatter

Me personally? No. But I did get other people to give open source developers millions of dollars.

Not that it should matter.

Programmers should be able to spot the IF and THEN part of that post, right?

@akareilly indeed, that sort of response from a programmer is dismissive and a knee jerk reaction (or sometimes simply a jerk). There must be nicer ways of saying ā€œPRs welcomeā€ or ā€œthis project is open to all; please stop byā€ without passing the buck. It’s like some sort of stone soup.

@akareilly @Sandra "Then, programmers should understand that "can't be bothered" isn't "can't"."

Totally this.

@akareilly @Sandra

This relates to my day job of growing IS programs in schools.

Learn to embrace failure.

@Sandra @akareilly it is indeed important and too-uncommon knowledge! but it is not knowledge that should be required in order to own and operate clothing, especially as a basic level of operating clothing *is* a prerequisite for obtaining a basic level of income, education, and opportunity for socialization

which adds increasing depth to the metaphor with the increasing need of computer literacy and internet access for schooling, job-hunting, and socializing

Everyone, learn how to code

@akareilly
Well, you have to learn how to use pants (Pull them over your legs, not arms. Each leg in a separate trouser leg. Different kind of buttons. Etc.) and actually do so when still very young. And it takes some time, too.
So instead of learning to code you'd need to learn how to use technology instead, so that you don't put both legs in one trouser leg and fall flat on your face. (And a basic understanding on how it works probably doesn't hurt either, but that applies to everything).
@akareilly I regret to inform you of a failure mode with this specific rule, one that significant social effort has been invested in trying to fix.

@dymaxion

Sociology is just a lazy made up job for people who can't grow flax, make linen, and manufacture undergarments.

@akareilly And then complete a university education for every language they want to use on social media before they are allowed to post anything again.
@akareilly also mine ore, process it, and manufacture computer components themselves, obviously

@akareilly it really depends on the technology. If it's a GUI tool marketed at end users, it's not reasonable to expect users to know how to code. If it's a programming library, coding skills are a reasonable expectation to have of your end users.

If I'm selling pants, it's unreasonable for me to expect my customers to know how to make pants. If I'm selling flax and my customers want pants, then it's reasonable for me to expect my customers to know how to make them or find an alternative vendor

@akareilly So right! Or maybe be able to rebuild your transmission before you drive a car.

šŸ”„šŸ”„

related tangent: I grew up with Visual Basic and love Hypercard - the tools that allowed novices to learn and make useful apps. They were mocked into extinction as not "real programming" and were replaced with *gestures around at the hot mess* - i am still seething at the lost productivity because certain kind of people keep complicating everyone's lives to feed their own egos.

And then they have the chutzpah to tell everyone else to jump through needless hoops to get basic things done.

@harshad
Boy this takes me back. Not to hypercard, but to learning my trade in the '90s & seeing case after case of people presenting harder web based ways of doing everything as though they were revolutionary.
@FeralRobots it's all a distraction for job security of the gatekeepers. I can't see this any other way now.
@harshad
I do believe that's a lot of it, but I think there are also insitutional ways that knowledge just gets lost - one of those is that generations have to distinguish their contribution from that of their predecessors. In its extreme manifestation, everything the predecessor did has to suck.