akareillyJan 25, 2023
If you insist that people learn to code in order to use technology, I'm going to insist that you grow your own flax, do the retting, spin it, weave it, and sew it before you're allowed to wear pants.
Show threadSandraJan 25, 2023
@akareilly

Yes, except not ironically. Knowing how to craft and repair clothes is a pretty good thing.
Show threadakareillyJan 25, 2023

@Sandra

Absolutely! It doesn't take expensive supplies to start mending, and there are many resources online now.

I am actually capable of doing all of these things using Neolithic tech. Apocalypse skills, sorted.

There are darning looms, tablet weaving supplies, rigid heddle looms, backstrap looms, spinning wheels, knitting machines, knitting belts and pins, sewing machines, and all sorts of things here.

Show threadSandraJan 25, 2023
@akareilly

I never worked with textiles professionally, but in school we were taught braiding, carding, spinning, weaving, knitting, darning, and crocheting. This started before we were taught grammar and multiplication. I appreciate being shown those things because it's good to not get too abstracted from the levers we're using to interact with the world.

Things like math and logic and writing and physics and drawing and all kinds of things got way easier after I had started learning to code. The same goes for the spiritual or psychological experience. Coding (probably better known as meta-thinking, thinking about thinking) is an amazing foundation for other fields.

(On the other hand I hate modern, commercial tech 💁🏻‍♀️)
Show threadakareillyJan 25, 2023

@Sandra

We didn't get fiber arts in school but I was lucky enough to have computers at school and at home.

3-2-1 Contact magazine had BASIC code for games that we typed into a Commodore64. Now there are fun, visual tools to get kids started.

Everyone should have the opportunity to code.

It's also OK if kids find that boring and do something else.

Show threadSandraJan 25, 2023
@akareilly

"It's also OK if kids find that boring and do something else"

If you also feel that way about writing, reading, math, politics, history, physics then that's food for thought for me, I'd have to think about to what extent the grown-up world should insist on teaching things. Interesting dilemma 💁🏻‍♀️

If it's coding specifically then I'm not onboard.
Show threadakareillyJan 25, 2023

@Sandra

Kids should have a *basic* understanding of things that they find boring. With any new skill, there's a certain level of learning that many people need to reach to know whether they really enjoy it or not. If someone gets to that point and can program something basic, or even reaches professional competence, and decides they don't like code? That's fine. The point is to try.

Then, programmers should understand that "can't be bothered" isn't "can't".

Show threadakareilly

@Sandra

Just like the kids who don't make all their own clothes. They still get to wear clothes and have preferences.

That's what I find weird about open source software developers not taking feedback, and responding to any requests with "just fork it". If you say "OK, stop buying clothes if you don't like what you have" the answer might be "but I don't have time to learn this! I wouldn't have time to code! I could learn but I need to make software instead!"

Jan 25, 2023 at 11:32amWeb
Show threadSandraJan 25, 2023
@akareilly

I hate programming so much 😭

People don't get that since I'm the world's best programmer. They're like "why don't you program more?" Because I hate it.

As far as open source software developers not taking feedback specifically, I've argued against that refusal:

https://idiomdrottning.org/user-dev-dialectics

So in that specific fight, I'm with you.

Learning the basics of how code works and how to code simple things is all I'm asking; as you point out, the difference between knowing how it's constructed vs having the time, resources, skill level to do everything from scratch always.

Code can also be copied so there's a degree of cooperation and standing on each other's shoulders that's possible in code that's not possible to the same extent in textile:

https://idiomdrottning.org/mittens

I thought we were talking about something else. When I'm like "everyone should learn how to code", it's not to give credence to your basic GitHub issues sourpuss. I'm with you on that one. Instead, it's a reaction to the veneer of network path dependent silos like Instagram, Hacker's News, Facebook, YouTube, how our infastructure is being gatekept by modern-day Priests of Ra who are stacking their castle walls on layers and layers and layers of abstraction and toolkits, locking everything down and wrapping your basic everyday tools in hard plastic and planned obsolescence. It's a celebration of how coding can be a foundation for other fields and philosophies, how it can help us reason about our interactions with nature, others, and ourselves. How market capitalism is a broken program and how we need the best minds of our generation to set things straight before we burn the world. 🤷🏻‍♀️
User/Dev dialectics in FOSS

Show threadakareillyJan 25, 2023

@Sandra

Oh yes, we are in vehement agreement!

Show threadakareillyJan 25, 2023

@Sandra

I can write a grant for software development in 72 hours after begging the devs to give me at least bullet points for weeks. The grant will meet requirements, have no typos, and will usually win. I've raised millions for open source projects.

I detest grant writing with the fire of a thousand suns.

Show threadJohn MullinaxJan 25, 2023
@Sandra @akareilly Well said! I've always felt basic competence with computing, including coding, should be taught as as a liberal art - in the same way that traditional liberal arts curricula teach reading, writing, mathematics, and science. Add computing to the list. It's not that everyone should develop professional-level abilities in all of these fields, but everyone would benefit from a basic understanding -- enough to know when they may want to learn more, and a foundation to build on.
Show threadJohn MullinaxJan 25, 2023
@Sandra @akareilly At this point, it's a matter of literacy, similar to being familiar with statistics. And this seems like it will be more true in the future. My daughter is in college, and her marine science program's "computational foundations" class requires her to learn python, because that is a very common way analysis of data is done.
Show threadMatt SickerJan 26, 2023
@akareilly you gonna pay for those changes if you’re not making them?
Show threadakareillyJan 26, 2023

@sickmatter

Me personally? No. But I did get other people to give open source developers millions of dollars.

Not that it should matter.

Programmers should be able to spot the IF and THEN part of that post, right?

Show threadMatt SickerJan 26, 2023
@akareilly indeed, that sort of response from a programmer is dismissive and a knee jerk reaction (or sometimes simply a jerk). There must be nicer ways of saying “PRs welcome” or “this project is open to all; please stop by” without passing the buck. It’s like some sort of stone soup.