Ratnabali B
A cappella 
Why are ethics questions always like:
"is it ethical to steal bread to feed your starving family?"
And not:
"is it ethical to sell bread when families are starving?"
@quoteme
msgbi
Kevin Karhan 
@waldenecovillage true, true...
@waldenecovillage I get the question, but both lack a lot of context.
In all seriousness, all human's essential needs can and should be fulfilled.
It's just politically undesired to make poverty go away...
William Avery@kkarhan @waldenecovillage Poverty is one of the most powerful levers of social control.
Mark Jager@kkarhan @waldenecovillage yes..it’ll still be true when AI robots can do every job.
We need #SystemChange and not only because #SystemChangeNotClimateChange is necessary for humanity's survival, but without #redistribution of #wealth the ompoverished at some point will be bushed down hard enough that they'll start flipping tables and DIY redistribution "Old French Style"...
And that's the real reason why #Musk wants to go to #Mars: He neither wants to share nor end 6ft under...
Humans Are Becoming Horses
Support Grey making videos: https://www.patreon.com/cgpgrey## Robots, Etc:Terex Port automation: http://www.terex.com/port-solutions/en/products/new-equipmen...
Wendy@waldenecovillage To me any form of stealing counts as unethical. The severity can change though. If they are stealing from another starving family then they are in a large wrong. If they stole off a bread truck composting bread then less sever. It would be unethical to sell bread to someone in need. At a curtain point it becomes extortion for money
For the love of humanity@Star @waldenecovillage The point is it isn't about stealing.
Camarada Bakunin 
@Star @waldenecovillage Necessitas non habet legem.
Daniel Kochanowicz@waldenecovillage I always agreed with Emma Goldman on this point when she said:
“ Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.”
“ Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.”
Hugh Ferguson@waldenecovillage "But what if your family doesn't like bread, but instead likes cigarettes? And what if instead of giving them away, you sell them at a low price that is like giving them away" - Fat Tony from the Simpsons
Jacob Something@waldenecovillage Indeed! Never thought of that.
Nicola Leifker 🏳️⚧️If I might offer a counterquestion?
"Is it ethical to design, implement, and defend a societal system where a baker would feel the need to deny a starving family bread?"
Ed@waldenecovillage @NicolaElle keep in mind that the baker is just the last step in the process. There are farmers even earlier up the production chain that also are selling their goods only to the highest bidder. The baker had to pay money for the raw ingredients. I don’t really have a point, I’m just saying the thought experiment had to start earlier than the baker.
Gemma 👽@waldenecovillage mind=blown 🤯
R.@waldenecovillage Jean Valjean likes this. ✅
TylerJWhit
Ordinary Wonder@waldenecovillage because most people can’t relate to the second one.
☥Bliss☥@waldenecovillage Capitalist mindset for ya
Adam Vallee 🇨🇦🏳️🌈@waldenecovillage I do not disagree with you. Maybe the argument would be that a farmer will not work for free to produce the wheat, the truck drivers will not work for free to transport the raw wheat to the grinding plant, and the staff at that plant will not work for free to make the flour. And we have not even reached 20% of the cost of a loaf of bread, and all we have is flour. It's more complex than it's simple appearance in a plastic bag on a store shelf.
@av @waldenecovillage the problem is that producing these very basic goods (wheat, flour, etc) need to be sold at a price that covers the even earlier costs (farming equipment, fuel for the equipment, seeds, fertilizer, water, labour). Through subsidies or supply pricing, we shrink the downstream cost of these goods so that the baker doesn’t have to pay the REAL cost of the flour, so that the consumer doesn’t have to pay the REAL cost of the bread. Sry I don’t have a point.
🏴☠️ParallaX🏴Steal a billion dollars and you are a financier.
Steal a million dollars and you are a banker.
Steal a thousand dollars and you are a thief.
Steal a loaf of bread and you are the lowest of scoundrels who should be flogged to death.
-Unknown
RichardOntario@ParallaX @waldenecovillage @nando161 A very old movie line from Sean Connery as a prisoner Steal a million dollars and get your picture on a magazine Steal the magazine and go to jail Nothing has changed
Sue Stone@waldenecovillage and even more so: Is it ethical to increase profits on your bakery while wheat is in short supply?
Quuux@waldenecovillage Because the answer to the later is already found:
Yes, it is; since it allows for a sustainable supply of bread for many families, instead of a one-time donation only.
The trickier question is: what kind of markup is ethically acceptable on that sale?
Yes, it is; since it allows for a sustainable supply of bread for many families, instead of a one-time donation only.
The trickier question is: what kind of markup is ethically acceptable on that sale?
Colin Rafferty MOVED@waldenecovillage there are so many people in this comment thread who almost get it.
“But how is the baker going to pay his rent?” “Why would the truck driver work for free?” “How can the farmer buy seeds?”
“pay”, “free”, “buy”
So close.
Tzafrir@colin_rafferty @waldenecovillage
We have a method that basically manages to feed people (if you put aside areas of wars and such, the amounts of mal-nutrition keep decreasing. Even with the population increasing).
I have heard of alternatives suggested, but none that really work. Capitalism is probably the worst form of economy (except all the other ones we tried).
@tzafrir @waldenecovillage yet somehow, we still have people living in the street, children going to bed hungry, and must discuss the ethics of stealing to feed your family.
MKMartin@waldenecovillage *Ireland has entered the chat*
Godlesswh_re@waldenecovillage I wish people would focus on the fact that these families can't feed themselves. That is the only issue here. Also, how do they not feel bad that they are in a situation that they didn't create.
knoopx@waldenecovillage because capitalism has pretty much taken over every aspect of life and our ethics are alienated by a system that promotes dominance, individualism and unfairness
Oblomov@waldenecovillage I don't think you ever came across an economist, have you?
HT @rysiek
Max Leibman has moved!@waldenecovillage Or even split the difference—assume you sell bread and we’re fine with that, is it ethical to throw unsold bread away when families are starving?
Gen X-Wing@waldenecovillage My question is rather: Is it ethical that a tiny group owns almost everything and as a results millions upon millions suffer.
Bodhi O'SheaBecause few ever examine the ethics of a social history in which people come to buy and sell bread for profit.
I like the way I just heard #GeorgeMonbiot articulate a revision of article 17 of the UDHR: "Everyone has the right to use property, without infringing on other's right to use property," such that proprietorship becomes more about use than title.
Perhaps thinking about it that way changes the notions of what theft means and who the aggressor is.
Aleff@waldenecovillage my guess, nobody will stop you to bake and give bread for free to who does need it. If you can catch up with the big guys who give food for free to the food banks, i doubt it....
EH Lupton@waldenecovillage isn't that kind of the central question of Living High and Letting Die by Peter Unger, though?
fluffel
nia@waldenecovillage omg I couldn’t love this more
@waldenecovillage is it ethical to require payment for services rendered?
Chris Brown@waldenecovillage or even “Is it ethical to throw out food that didn’t sell, instead of donating it?”
✊🏾WiseGuyEddie
onecaliberal@waldenecovillage reminder to everyone trying to use capitalist modes of production to justify letting families starve to death: that flag in the poster's name is the anarcho-communist flag. This post is about why capitalist modes of production are bad. If you can justify letting families starve with your economic model, then you need to change your economic model not let them starve.
Daniel Brotherston@waldenecovillage Very interesting, because it changes who has implied agency.
In the first, bread costing money is just an implicit law of the universe.
The second question recognizes the agency of those who sell bread.
Why do philosophers want to hide the agency of those people...
@danbrotherston @waldenecovillage how can bread costing money be a law of the universe when both bread and money are human inventions?
If you cannot separate modern industrial capital from all of history, how can your opinion on a future that progressively requires we move beyond it be valid?
Frank Vehafric@waldenecovillage It's all about the frame.
xX Linn Xx 🔒@waldenecovillage Because the latter challenges the status quo and makes one think of systemic issues and conversely systemic change, rather than blaming the individuals and asking to what level individuals should be controlled.
The Duality of Xan@waldenecovillage To quietly place the idea in people’s minds that the individual is to blame.
Zuri (he/him) ❌️👑 🕐 CET@waldenecovillage Why don't we ask:
"is it ethical to have capitalism"
"is it ethical to have capitalism"
Carlos Rodríguez@waldenecovillage the answer to both questions is yes.
✯Pumpkin👑Prole🎃@waldenecovillage *sniffles* ideology, of course.
Silkester@waldenecovillage
Because those who buy the ingredients, bake and sell the bread have families, too?!
... you can't live on bread alone.
Catherine Berry@waldenecovillage , paraphrasing Brecht from memory: "What crime is it to rob a bank, compared to founding a bank?"