Ed BottI would really like to quote-tweet this, adding my 2 cents and amplifying Taylor's words.
But I can't. And that's unfortunate.
Dave Kearns
Andy Daitsman@adaitsman @dak3 It was ... half my point.
Anyone determined enough can figure out a way, but it should be easier than this.
deltatux@edbott @adaitsman @dak3
This is a debate that's been hotly debated on the dev level. There have been many proposals to implement this feature but Eugen has apparently argued that he didn't want to include it because it would spread toxicity & cyberbullying. This debate is still ongoing, maybe as more people demand it, it might come?
So far none of the forks have included this feature either.
Sadly for me, my instance runs on Akkoma (fork of Pleroma) which does support quote posting but since Mastodon doesn't support it, it won't render my post. Since most of my follows & followers use Mastodon, it effectively renders the feature useless since I can't use it...
This is a debate that's been hotly debated on the dev level. There have been many proposals to implement this feature but Eugen has apparently argued that he didn't want to include it because it would spread toxicity & cyberbullying. This debate is still ongoing, maybe as more people demand it, it might come?
So far none of the forks have included this feature either.
Sadly for me, my instance runs on Akkoma (fork of Pleroma) which does support quote posting but since Mastodon doesn't support it, it won't render my post. Since most of my follows & followers use Mastodon, it effectively renders the feature useless since I can't use it...
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman Yeah, I feel your pain. I understand the objections, but honestly, the abuse of quote tweets is more about the author than the format.
Hope we figure this out.
@edbott @dak3 @adaitsman
Personally I really think not adding this feature because of cyberbullying doesn't make much sense considering abusers can easily work around this problem by taking a screenshot to quote post. Worse part is, with the screenshot method, the target would have no idea you were talking shit behind their backs.
Also, they're taking away a useful feature because some bad apples could abuse it.
Honestly to me this is a moderation issue, not a technical one. Mastodon remains the only microblogging platform without this basic feature.
Personally I really think not adding this feature because of cyberbullying doesn't make much sense considering abusers can easily work around this problem by taking a screenshot to quote post. Worse part is, with the screenshot method, the target would have no idea you were talking shit behind their backs.
Also, they're taking away a useful feature because some bad apples could abuse it.
Honestly to me this is a moderation issue, not a technical one. Mastodon remains the only microblogging platform without this basic feature.
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman I could not have said that any better. This is a moderation issue, not a technical one.
The Great Llama 
@edbott
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
Honestly, from what I have seen so far, moderation is where this platform shines. I've run across a handful of people whose views I disagree with enough to bother blocking them but so far only two that were clearly undoubtedly intentional bad actors. I reported the bad actors and they were gone within the hour. Contrast that with twitter's endless string of emails saying, "we've reviewed HitlerRocks1488's posts and found no violations".
This place has shown a remarkable ability to defend against the worst aspects of Twitter, but a real hesitance to allow the kind of discussion that was the best aspect of Twitter.
@TheGreatLlama @edbott @dak3 @adaitsman
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the abusive behaviours at Twitter was tolerated because it increased engagement, thus revenue for the company. Company was already not profitable to begin with.
With the fediverse being largely operated by volunteers & donations (so far at least), that incentive for "engagement at all costs" doesn't exist. You also have smaller communities per each server with their own moderation team that can handle this easier, I have a feeling the moderator to user ratio is better here than on Twitter (wished I had this data to back this up but don't think we'll ever get that) and for instances that don't moderate, the option to defederate is always there. These are tools available to put the power back into the hands of the community that doesn't exist on a centralized blogging platform like Twitter.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the abusive behaviours at Twitter was tolerated because it increased engagement, thus revenue for the company. Company was already not profitable to begin with.
With the fediverse being largely operated by volunteers & donations (so far at least), that incentive for "engagement at all costs" doesn't exist. You also have smaller communities per each server with their own moderation team that can handle this easier, I have a feeling the moderator to user ratio is better here than on Twitter (wished I had this data to back this up but don't think we'll ever get that) and for instances that don't moderate, the option to defederate is always there. These are tools available to put the power back into the hands of the community that doesn't exist on a centralized blogging platform like Twitter.
@deltatux
@dak3 @adaitsman @edbott
I have absolutely zero doubts about that moderator to user ratio. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more admins per user than Twitter had moderators!
@dak3 @adaitsman @edbott
I have absolutely zero doubts about that moderator to user ratio. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more admins per user than Twitter had moderators!
naught101@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
This is exactly the same logic that the NRA uses to argue against gun control. Guns don't kill people, people do. Quote tweets don't cause abuse, bigots do.
It has an element of truth, but if your aim is to prevent gun deaths, it's irrelevant, because angry people exist, and if you restrict their access to guns, then the number of gun deaths go down.
Chris Maler@naught101
The same can be said for social media as a whole, it allows for cyberbullying. Should it be banned completely?
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
The same can be said for social media as a whole, it allows for cyberbullying. Should it be banned completely?
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
@Thegreenman @edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
Good point. I think none of this is black and white.
I'm not completely opposed to QTs myself, but I would like them to be assessed based on reason, logic, and evidence before being implemented. So far most people calling for them aren't actually providing much evidence of a need that can't also be addressed just by linking.
Also I do think the jury is still out on the net benefit of social media as a whole!
@naught101
Agreed on that last point. I'm leaning towards it being mostly negative.
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
Agreed on that last point. I'm leaning towards it being mostly negative.
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
@Thegreenman I put a poll up yesterday to see why people use social media, triggered by this conversation. It's not spreading enough to get good results, but I was wondering if the results would be significantly different than twitter, because that would shift the equation all lot, I suspect.
@Thegreenman cheers!
I'd be interested on your thoughts on the distribution, now or when it finishes in a couple of days :)
PixelJones@naught101 @edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
Explain-like-I'm-five, how does quote-tweeting promote cyber bullying exactly?
Oh and when someone does that, please explain how suppressing the thousand-to-one times a quote-tweet _promotes_ & _reinforces_ good ideas & good people isn't throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
@PixelJones @edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
I never argued that it does. Other people have though, perhaps ask one of them?
All I have been trying to say is that the people arguing for a QT on mastodon have not been providing evidence and rationale to back their claims. You are also not.
@PixelJones @edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
Here is a really good thread that actually DOES look at evidence. This is the kind of information that convinces me.
Katherine Alejandra Cross (@[email protected])
It appears, at least in my little archipelago of Mastodons, that there's a Great Quote-Tweet debate happening. One person I respect asked pointedly to see data that proved QTs were abusive. Since I've been researching affordances of social media platforms I pulled some bits and bobs out of my hideous pile of papers and thought I'd share some insights with y'all about this question. Cards on the table: I think QTs are a net negative. But nothing's ever simple.
Kins@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman moderation is done on a volunteer basis in these parts and quote retweeting was primarily used for harassment on the other site. Hopefully more people realize this is community funded community driven and stop griping and otherwise open their wallets and time to the cause
Dr. J Bernadette Moore
Frank Vehafric@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott To me it wasn't about the comments as much as it was being subjected to a constant barrage of MTG's and Boebert's stupid faces while people dunked on them. It became intolerable.
Patrick McLaughlin@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott
When we have the funding for *heavy* moderation to oversee it… but we don’t. And won’t. Twitter didn’t. FB didn’t.
Part of what controls it here is the lack of QT. Part of it is being able to report to admins, block, and get accounts or instances suspended/defederated.
But it’s well establish here that there’s no QT. If that changes it needs to let posters *allow* a post to be quoted.
Or not.
Deb4+ aka Deborah DT 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️
Chris De Laet@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott @taylorlorenz Let’s not make knives because they can be used for bad things.
Now shut up and peel your pineapple with your fork!
Now shut up and peel your pineapple with your fork!
JanetI dunno, I was relieved when I found out that there was no quote function here. On twitter I was once quote tweeted by someone who then immediately blocked me. Her tweet remained up and her followers could see it and trash me; I only found out because a friend saw it and told me. Basically the same as you describe with screenshotting.
PlineyTheNewer 🇺🇦🌻@edbott @dak3 @deltatux @adaitsman Screen shooting isn’t an effective way of bullying,since only the bully’s followers see it. Most of the bullying is by bots, who no one follows.
Sam Thurston 
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman this is very much a "guns don't kill people" argument.
The undesirable behavior is more difficult and less frequent if you don't provide a means to do it quickly and easily.
@edbott
My sentiments exactly. QTs have value and can add important context or additional important content. They aren't bad, but can, of course, be misused.
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
My sentiments exactly. QTs have value and can add important context or additional important content. They aren't bad, but can, of course, be misused.
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman
@edbott @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman or you could have the conversation inside of the original reply to and boost your post to connect your followers to the post. But surely you’ve opened your wallet to the cause?
Drew Tipson@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott yeah, and I don't think so much demand it, but rather: make the case for it's utility, in general or for Mastodon specifically.
To Taylors point: maybe without it, it won't draw a crucial mass of journalists. But then the devs might say: maybe that goal (courting journalists, growing huge) isn't something a platform like this should actively even seek to achieve, even if it'd be cool.
@adrew @deltatux @dak3 @edbott Bringing journos over here may help wean them away from Twitter and contribute to the eventual crash of #birdchan. But it’s also an attempt to turn mastodon into Twitter 2.0.
Twitter is going away all on its own. People who don’t like the environment here can either adjust to the change, or not, whichever suits them best.
Pillosopher-Arjun Rajagopalan@adaitsman @adrew @deltatux @dak3 @edbott
I totally agree with your statements, Andy. Mastodon is unique in many ways and should stay that way. Users need to adapt to it. I certainly don't want to see it morph into "Twitter 2.0".
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott on the other hand, how some Twitter-like QT feature may or may not be used for harassment if brought over here (into a different system, different culture, probably a different user-base than Twitter) seems really hard to predict.
Maybe it inevitably does once you reach a certain huge number of users, enough to draw over habitual abusers. Or maybe not, the same patterns/threat worries don't apply here
@adrew @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott
It's a good point, the fediverse indeed has a different system & culture, no one truly knows if a quote post function would be abused to the level of Twitter.
Honestly, I think Twitter's algorithms make it worse because you don't see this problem on other platforms that have similar function like the traditional forum software and Reddit. All of these platforms allow for quote replies of some sort.
If there are abusers, a community's moderator can silence/boot them off. If an instance is full of abusers, the instance admin has the ability to defederate from that abusive instance. These are features that don't exist with centralized social media. The other issue is that with a large social media platform, because of their size, there's the image that because they're so big, your reports would just simply get lost in the sea of reports.
It's a good point, the fediverse indeed has a different system & culture, no one truly knows if a quote post function would be abused to the level of Twitter.
Honestly, I think Twitter's algorithms make it worse because you don't see this problem on other platforms that have similar function like the traditional forum software and Reddit. All of these platforms allow for quote replies of some sort.
If there are abusers, a community's moderator can silence/boot them off. If an instance is full of abusers, the instance admin has the ability to defederate from that abusive instance. These are features that don't exist with centralized social media. The other issue is that with a large social media platform, because of their size, there's the image that because they're so big, your reports would just simply get lost in the sea of reports.
@deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott the Twitter algorithm definitely worked towards making QT's, especially really controversial ones, surface in my feed regularly: with Twitter, no matter when I logged on, I'd be caught up with all the latest fights and digs and takes on "the main character" of the day, as things tended to go
I _think_ that's not as possible or as likely the way this place is set up. Don't know though
Sierra Madre@deltatux @dak3 @adrew @adaitsman @edbott
Your argument is the best to make to @Gargron in favor of QTs.
Since other platforms have some sort of QT function and don’t seem to have the toxicity of #twitter because there is no algorithm to promote/amplify the worst posts, maybe QTs could work here.
Personally I’m fine without them. I’ve had more meaningful convos than I’ve ever had on #thebirdsite.
Wyrd by Word@adrew @deltatux @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott My experience over the decades leads me to suspect that features like simple quoting and full-text federated search will inevitably become vectors of abuse when a population becomes large. The question is where the balance lies, the costs, and which groups pay it. And it probably varies significantly by affordance. And it's a bit of a Catch-22 because any feature that grows communities can be used for abuse.
@wyrdbyword @adrew @dak3 @adaitsman @edbott
and this is exactly why there's been this never-ending debate that has pretty much raged on since the beginning of Mastodon and it keeps popping up.
and this is exactly why there's been this never-ending debate that has pretty much raged on since the beginning of Mastodon and it keeps popping up.