Pwnallthethings
The whole debate over free speech and moderation really always just comes down to "what are the rules, who sets them, and enforces them". Everything else is always just instrumental to that question.
Dec 11, 2022 at 5:26pmWeb
Show threadPwnallthethingsDec 11, 2022

All other debates are just special cases of it.

The 1A debates are hyper-legalized proxies for it, either arguing (correctly) that 1A means the rules can't be enforced by the government, or railing against that (usually, but not always based on the expectation the govt would side with your view)

The 230 debates are a (usually poorly informed) hyper-legalized instrumentation to that.

The shadowban/algorithm debates is -- "who sets the algorithm?" as a proxy for "who sets the rules / decides"

Show threadPwnallthethingsDec 11, 2022

But about 99% of all of the different variants of the debates come down to "who sets the rules, and who enforces them".

Note also that nobody serious argues that *nobody* should set the rules or enforce them; even free-speech absolutists don't go that far.

It's just always the question of *who*.

Show threadPwnallthethingsDec 11, 2022

In the olden Twitter days, the answer was "Twitter set the rules, so as to navigate the line between maximizing engagement for advertizers, but also generally (but not always) trying to steer engagement away from hateful content"

The new rules are "maximizing engagement at all costs, with engagement steered away from those who don't pay"

That's all it is.

Show threadPwnallthethingsDec 11, 2022
Anyone who tries to tell you they've solved the problem with This One Cool Trick The Moderators Don't Want You To Know is fooling you, and either trying to take your money, or set *themselves* up as the rule-maker and enforcer, or both.
Show threadPwnallthethingsDec 11, 2022

That's how you get to conclusions like "Elon's Jet twitter account should be visibility restricted, but anti-vaxxers, far-right pundits, and anyone who pays me $8 should not"

There's no philosophical principle behind it beyond the guy in charge setting the rules based on his own interests.

You might think that he *shouldn't*, but the corporate and constitutional structure of America means he *can*, and that's what the site has become, and why it's unlikely to correct course in the future.

Show threadEn Buen Ora 🆗Dec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings it'd be great if we had the sensibility of people from a century or so ago who were more in touch with union members and workers' movements to explain how having everything run by the boss for the boss makes it awful
Show threadÓscar Morales VivóDec 11, 2022
@enbuenora @Pwnallthethings they only got there after living through the gilded age and the ‘29 crash. Looks like we’re moving in that direction but whether it’ll end New Deal or 3rd Reich remains to be seen.
Show threadEn Buen Ora 🆗Dec 11, 2022
@MyLittleMetroid @Pwnallthethings In the early 20th century, the news media environment was in many ways better--the majority of subscriptions to newspapers, newsletters, publications were to those published by labor, socialists, agricultural populists, reformers, and ethnic communities. Now the business press entirely dominates formal news media.
Show threadÓscar Morales VivóDec 11, 2022
@enbuenora @Pwnallthethings it’s never the same but it often rhymes. It’s also not like the newspaper barons of yesteryear were any better than Murdoch et al. The escape valves were different though and they aren’t working for much of the populace nowadays but I suspect they didn’t back then either.
Show threadEn Buen Ora 🆗Dec 12, 2022
@MyLittleMetroid no, the business press was just as bad back then--but there was a more widespread balance to it not based in the business press
Show threadDavid FyhrieDec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings

$44 billion for his personal microblog. I would have set up a Mastodon instance for him for $2 million. He lost out on that deal.

Show threadArdeeDec 11, 2022
@Califury @Pwnallthethings
So glad you didn’t; we don’t need him and his ilk here. Let him sink his own plague ship with all aboard.
Show threadEggmont 🐘Dec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings
Let us not forget that foundering on the rocks also greatly inhibits course corrections.

I can easily envision #Twitter as a digital Pitcairn Island with only mutineers living in isolation on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_Island

#StopMeNow

Pitcairn Island - Wikipedia

Show threadDr. FrogDec 12, 2022
@eggmont @Pwnallthethings To be more accurate, the mutineers and the Tahitian native men they'd brought with them to Pitcairn ended up pretty much all killing each other so that there was only one mutineer left, along with the Tahitian women and their children.
Show threadEggmont 🐘Dec 12, 2022

@PhD_Frog @Pwnallthethings

History repeats itself.

Show threadКу đŸ‡§đŸ‡ŹđŸ‡ŞđŸ‡ş Dec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings i saw an interesting take on this a while ago. Someone was saying that moderation is in of itself a form of speech. When a platform suspends/bans/deactivates/etc. it’s the organization “speaking” it’s values (obviously those needen’t be good or bad, just values). So throigh that lense free speech absolutism still doesn’t require allowing everyone to say whatever they want. Instead it becomes this intricate game of gymnastics of determining if moderation was done as an expression of an organization/admin/moderator’s free will to express the values they hold, or as a result of coercion, e.g. from the government, powerful financial institutions, public opponion, etc. I don’t know if I’d buy into that idea, but it struck me as a pretty interesting take.
Show threadRichardDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings He's off on sending Fauci to jail atm.
Show threadmarktaylorDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings The key is the money and the users. Is Twitter commercially attractive and a politically neutral town square or a Cesspit of hate? Time will take care of the rest. It’s gonnna die otherwise. The only question is when.
Show threadThe Big FoxDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings it’s clear that he doesn’t care about the cash he spent to buy it, he’s determined to make twitter into a pro-right wing space even if it costs him every dime he spent. It doesn’t mean we have to stay there and support him.
Show threadYnoTDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings haven’t even opened the app since he took over. Don’t miss it. Nazis, lunatics, and their hangers-on, no thank you.
Show thread🇺🇦 Sean Prophet ⚛Dec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings

#informational #authoritarianism

Is the end result of our system that has always been designed to give advantages to the wealthy and powerful. It's always been this way, because that's our Constitution. The "Founding Fathers" weren't geniuses, they were scoundrels.

Show threadHavyhh2Dec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings
That first earnings call after elmo’s buyout is gonna be ca-RAZY!!!
Show threadVoronDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings umm richer than many countries, law based primarily on fines that amounts to pennies to you or me, so we are at the whims of these new kings
Show threadStop ThatDec 12, 2022
@Pwnallthethings When I realized the only rule for moderation on Twitter was “Elon Musk’s whims,” that was when I said goodbye to twitter.
Show threadCoyoteDec 12, 2022
@stopthatgirl7 @Pwnallthethings Nice! Good timing, too.
Show threadStop ThatDec 12, 2022
@coyote99901 @Pwnallthethings It was when he reinstated Trump. That’s when I knew all bets were off and the only rule was what Elon‘s whim that day was. Since then, I only go back to try to convince people to join Mastodon and when links here go back there.
Show threadCoyoteDec 12, 2022
@stopthatgirl7 @Pwnallthethings Fair. I couldn’t stay anymore. I DID tell Elon to go join his Tesla in space before I left, though… 😉
Show threadGurtbeef RobeDec 12, 2022
@Pwnallthethings as someone who has been permanently suspended from twitter recently, the entire “freedom of speech” policy he claims basically means it’s ok as long as he agrees with it. He truly sucks
Show threadˈdälfən™🐬 💥 🌊Dec 14, 2022
@Pwnallthethings
Even if new owners took over tomorrow, Twitter will never be the same.
Show threadFlaming CheetoDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings the ol' Dick Cheney "I'll find you a good VP for the ticket" trick
Show threadhexDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings steering away from hateful content is just a special case of maximizing engagement for advertisers where some advertisers will be pressured to leave if they are tied to hateful content. It's literally all maximizing engagement with advertising.
Show threadMikko AlasaarelaDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Well said. Now the question remains: Is Mastodon going to be a scalable replacement without it including some revenue models outside donations to the server hosts? Probably not. Hopefully the new models are such that they don't end up needing the mass manipulation for ad revenue.
Show threadrootlessDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I think he’s tearing it down to undermine public trust to protect powerful interests. He’ll get all the money he needs from these parties. Especially when he gifts them formerly secret user information for their abusive purposes.
Show threadWonLove4EverDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings It is now a festering cesspool of magas & musk idolizing, tech bro incels, racist, anti-women, anti-lbgtq, anti-semite, anti-democracy freakazoids.
Show threadNicholas WeaverDec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings

One other rule: Do not make any decisions that interferes with the ego-stroking received by our Dear Leader, lest he fire us in a capricious fit.

Show threadherb’s derbsDec 12, 2022
@Pwnallthethings cc @ShorterPearson
Show threadOdiseoDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Yes. That's why you form a moderation board, Ă  la wikipedia, that tries to be as neutral as possible .
Show threadGeorge William HerbertDec 11, 2022
@Odiseo79 @Pwnallthethings if the instance owners agree.
Show threadBibbleCoDec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings Curse my organic brain and its pattern-matching reflex, -- it just threw up a couple of lines from a cheesily portentous (very early - first album, 1969) King Crimson song. "Knowledge is a deadly friend/ when no-one sets the rules / The fate of all mankind, I see / is in the hands of fools".

(If you think that's portentous, try the rest of the song -- those who like their excellent Fripp guitar with heavy side-orders of mellotron and rolling timpani (and really quite awful Pete Sinfield lyrics): https://youtu.be/vXrpFxHfppI

King Crimson - Epitaph (Including "March For No Reason" and "Tomorrow And Tomorrow")

YouTube
Show threadAphrodite (recharging)Dec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings

well some nobody has a tactic or three that is good at least in theory to force liberty deniers to eat their lies but no one listens to nobody so..

Show threadLaureDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Twitter is now another parlor-gab-truth social, info-wars platform for the richest man in the world (unless you count Putin and mbs.) Legitimate pols, #academics, #journalists and orgs are fools for staying there. You can’t fight the fight, when he pulls all the strings. It’s now rigged speech favoring the far right, that presents extreme dangers for anyone who disagrees. His free speech mantra is 100% gaslighting.
Show threadThat Anonymous CowardDec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings

A handy link for the 230 impaired...

https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act/

Hello! You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 Of The Communications Decency Act

Hello! Someone has referred you to this post because you’ve said something quite wrong about Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. I apologize if it feels a bit cold and rude to resp…

Techdirt
Show threadKarsten™️Dec 11, 2022
@That_AC @Pwnallthethings
@mmasnick
Someone really needs to write a bot whose job is to post a link to that article anytime it sees "Section 230" in a post.
Show threadThat Anonymous CowardDec 12, 2022

@karstenbondy @Pwnallthethings @mmasnick

I'm just 1 "human" sociopath, my job was posting the DuckSauce video every time the Streisand Effect was mentioned because I feel it needs a theme song for greater penetration into the public consciousness.

That and sometimes I enjoy the fractal wrongness some people employ to make themselves looks even dumber than I thought they were to begin with.

<-- not a well person

Show threadKarsten™️Dec 12, 2022
@That_AC @Pwnallthethings @mmasnick
If you want the Streisand Effect to become more widely known, the logical course would be to try to get any post that mentions it taken down.
Show threadMike Masnick ✅Dec 12, 2022
@karstenbondy @That_AC @Pwnallthethings I tried that. :P https://www.techdirt.com/2015/01/08/10-years-everyones-been-using-streisand-effect-without-paying-now-im-going-to-start-issuing-takedowns/
For 10 Years Everyone's Been Using 'The Streisand Effect' Without Paying; Now I'm Going To Start Issuing Takedowns

I have to admit that I had no idea that it had been 10 years since I coined the term “The Streisand Effect” until the SkepticHistory Twitter feed called my attention to it earlier this …

Techdirt
Show threadKarsten™️Dec 12, 2022
@mmasnick @That_AC @Pwnallthethings Holy crap! You are even cooler than I thought.
Show threadThat Anonymous CowardDec 12, 2022

@karstenbondy @mmasnick @Pwnallthethings

He even tweeted with Mike Godwin discussing the pitfalls of trying to get paid for making a thing...

(I had a screenshot somewhere)

Show threadThat Anonymous CowardDec 12, 2022

@karstenbondy @mmasnick @Pwnallthethings

you try and keep 80K+ pictures sorted

Show threadThat Anonymous CowardDec 12, 2022

@karstenbondy @Pwnallthethings @mmasnick

But I've posted some of my best lines in posts about it, and DMCA abuse is wrong.

Show threadjprestonianDec 11, 2022

@Pwnallthethings Quote from the excellent @Teri_Kanefield (https://terikanefield.com/disillusioned-by-democracy/):

"(A good definition of democracy comes from sociologist Max Weber, who says there are three sources of authority for a government: Rule of law, the authority that underlies democracy. Traditional, the authority that underlies monarchies, and personal rule, the authority that underlies fascism. There are not many alternatives.)"

Disillusioned With Democracy - Teri Kanefield

Last week Trump expressed solidarity with the insurrectionists and had dinner with two fans of Adolph Hitler. On Sunday, December 4, he announced that the constitution should be “terminated” so that he can be reinstated as president. On Tuesday, the Trump Organization was convicted on all counts of tax fraud.  The Republican leadership remained largely silent. One … Disillusioned With Democracy Read More Âť

Teri Kanefield
Show threadMister MidnightDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Not only that - the noise that's generated around moderation is largely meant to cloud the issue, not resolve it. It's not like any right under USC is unlimited or ineligible for review.
Show threadShrikant JoshiDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings The #1357 by #xkcd sums it up almost perfectly: https://xkcd.com/1357/
Free Speech

xkcd
Show threadEscarpmentDec 11, 2022
@shrikant @Pwnallthethings I think it's turtles all the way down. The government is one representative of other people or society. But so is "the court of public opinion." So are smaller interpersonal dynamics. Do you ice out your friend for disagreeing with you, or do you grant them the right to state a dissenting opinion without draconian consequences?
Show threadEscarpmentDec 11, 2022
@Pwnallthethings @shrikant Maybe a better example is at work. Do you deny someone a promotion or dock them in their performance review for stating a dissenting opinion? Or do you cultivate a workplace culture where people are encouraged to state opinions that challenge the prevailing opinion at the company?
Show threadShrikant JoshiDec 12, 2022

@escarpment You are asking a very different question than the OP, @Pwnallthethings, IMO.

OP is trying to establish the premise that the rule-setter gets to decide boundaries of acceptability. You are questioning specifics of that boundary-setting. OP is pointing to the boundary-setter as the point of interest, you seem to be questioning the boundaries themselves.

Neither of you is wrong. You're both looking at two different things.

Show threadEscarpmentDec 12, 2022

@shrikant @Pwnallthethings Hm I don't think that's what I'm questioning. I don't think I'm questioning the rules and boundaries themselves.

I think I'm saying "the question of what are the rules and who decides" is the basic political question. And that question applies to states and "state-likes", where a "state-like" is any association of people whatsoever.

Show threadEscarpmentDec 12, 2022

@shrikant @Pwnallthethings it just so happens that states (governments) have really thorough answers to those questions. Who decides? Elected reps who are elected every X years according to Y procedure. What are the laws? The US Constitution and the US Code.

State-likes, on the other hand, do not have such solid answers to these questions, but could.

Show threadEscarpmentDec 12, 2022
@shrikant @Pwnallthethings What are the rules in the state-like entity known as public opinion? Don't do things people disapprove of? Who decides? The public? What are the consequences? Ridicule, derision, threats. My point is, in this light, public opinion seems like a really bad state-like with arbitrary rules and consequences.