Lauren WeinsteinDec 4, 2022
I had assumed that weaning myself off of #Twitter after 14 years (and a legacy blue check!) would be slow and painful. It's been the opposite. I check there maybe twice a day. And it's like a ghost town, a deserted alley with the stink of decay. My timeline is a pale shadow of what it was only a month ago as users move out. Most of my regular correspondents are already here on #Mastodon. Fascinating.
Show threadJari PennanenDec 4, 2022

@lauren @jeffjarvis Mastodon still can't handle influx of masses if suddenly 10 million more wanted to join.

There is no generic server which registration form one could point users to go. Main servers seem to have closed registration, and joining through joinmastodon.org is very confusing for regular people. It's like choosing your guild first, and then figuring out where the registration happens.

Mastodon could use more generic servers for those who are not in to guilds.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 4, 2022
@Ciantic @jeffjarvis I've said this publicly before. The #Mastodon onboarding situation is a real problem, especially for nontechies without a lot of time to "research" all this. Frankly, I'd like to see a nonprofit create a quality onboarding and support structure, with some sort of membership fee involved to pay the bills. I realize this is controversial but I think it likely is necessary -- or else something else along these lines.
Show threadBernhard Lill šŸŽ™ļøšŸ“² ā˜‘ļøDec 4, 2022

@lauren

Hi Lauren, what are, in your opinion, the main barriers when people try to join #Mastodon? (I found it pretty simple.)

@Ciantic @jeffjarvis

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 4, 2022

@dermedientyp @Ciantic @jeffjarvis There are a bunch of them. Most people just want to go to a site -- like Twitter or even Post for that matter, and with a couple of clicks get going.

With Mastodon now you start with lists of sites ostensibly focusing on different things, you don't really know who is running them or how stable they are, when you try to join one you find it's closed, or slow, or they put you on a waiting list of unknown duration, etc., etc. Not a good UX, frankly.

When you try to follow someone based on their handle you may find yourself on a page telling you to copy/paste into the search bar of another instance, and if you change instances you effectively lose your identity.

A one-stop onboarding process combined with handle portability/aliasing would go a long way toward making this platform accessible to far more busy nontechies, who right now are stuck on the hate speech site known as #Twitter .

Show threadTransitBikerDec 4, 2022
@lauren @dermedientyp @Ciantic @jeffjarvis A frequently updated searchable index would be the only change needed. The index could even be put on Wikipedia, as their index tables are great.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 4, 2022
@TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic @jeffjarvis Wherever the indexes reside, the process needs to be automatic and transparent to reference them.
Show threadTransitBikerDec 4, 2022
@lauren @dermedientyp @Ciantic @jeffjarvis Maybe we shouldnā€™t be dumping masses of people onto a platform more complex than twitter ā€œautomaticallyā€. We need folks to eat the veggies too, not just the candy. Mastodon isnā€™t about user number growth & ad revenue. Admins also need time to adjust things. Yes the rat site needs to go, but attempting to dump everyone from there onto here is a bad idea, I feel.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 4, 2022
@TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic @jeffjarvis I'd like potential refugees from the hate speech site known as Twitter to have a straightforward place to escape to. I'm not interested in teaching them compsci unless they're interested. I think #Mastodon can play an important role in this if we are a bit more accepting here -- and a bit less judgmental of less technical users.
Show threadcalcifer šŸ§ÆDec 5, 2022

@lauren @TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic @[email protected] consider that assuming asking a non-technical user to learn a small amount about a community they are joining is an insurmountable obstacle seems pretty disrespectful of peopleā€™s general ability to learn and adapt

The late-stage capitalism choices to spoon feed users a specific way of interacting disrespects the users and takes away important choices. Duplicating this is, IMO, not something we should aspire to. People are smarter than youā€™re giving them credit for, and itā€™s deeply unfair to suggest undermining deliberate and valuable design decisions simply to remove a small amount of friction

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 5, 2022
@calcifer @TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic It's not disrespectful at all. I help all sorts of people dealing with Internet related issues, including some who are very elderly but still very sharp. Not everyone has the time or inclination or background to plow through all this stuff. Many are isolated and just want to be able to be involved in a social online situation as simply as possible. Telling them that they have to go through this entire process to join this community *is* disrespectful. For the people who want to learn it and go digging through instances to find ones that work for them -- great. More power to them. But don't speak so disrespectfully of the others, because they are great people too.
Show threadcalcifer šŸ§ÆDec 5, 2022

@lauren @TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic I have been helping people do things online, including teaching the elderly, since the 90s.

And my experience is that things like joining Mastodon are plenty easy for people to grasp, as long as those guiding donā€™t over complicate it. Itā€™s easier to get started on the Fediverse today than it was to get onto Facebook during the heyday of its growth. Itā€™s far easier to join the Fediverse and have a decent experience than it is to do almost anything these folks have taught themselves to do in the past couple of years.

The issue isnā€™t at all that itā€™s difficult! Itā€™s that people approach the topic without care and empathy and make it seem scary.

Show threaddaskeitDec 5, 2022

@calcifer @lauren @TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic is the confusion linked to the difference in the underlying paradigms between Twitter and Fedi? People expecting to find a website and then running into a directory of different communities instead?

Instances are neighbourhoods. Pick where you want to live. Do a bit of research on what the place is like first. And you can move anytime you like.

Show threaddaskeitDec 5, 2022
@calcifer @lauren @TransitBiker @dermedientyp @Ciantic more generally, the strong focus on ā€œease of useā€ looks at users as consumers - make it easy for them to use your product even with zero effort or investment - rather than as members of a community for whom some investment of time and effort can be reasonably expected.
Show threadTransitBikerDec 5, 2022
@daskeit @calcifer @lauren @dermedientyp @Ciantic I agree. Profit modelled social media puts lots of emphasis on easily slipping new users into their prepackaged consuming pod. On the rat site, users are the product. Here the aim is connection & idea sharing, I feel.
Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 5, 2022
@TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Having a smooth and uncomplicated onboarding process is desirable both for the most predatory of commercial firms and the most benign of socially-conscious nonprofit organizations and/or platforms. Suggesting that because a predatory firm wants ease of access, that this somehow means that ease of access is undesirable in other contexts, is frankly rather nutty. I assume that's not what's being suggested in this thread.
Show threadTransitBikerDec 5, 2022
@lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic most social media exists to sell advertising. Itā€™s easy to join because more users means more ad revenue. Thereā€™s profit motive to make joining ā€œeffortlessā€. So effortless that the rat site was a huge mess of harassment & behavioural ugliness which was never properly moderated. Why? Money. Drama means engagement & engagement means ad views.
Show threadTransitBikerDec 5, 2022
@lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic And Iā€™ll add that thought should be put into joining a global communications platform. Trying to change mastodon into a rat site relocation program is not a good idea. Folks need to want to be here and participate and contribute somehow. Join an instance that fits your primary interest & learn as you go. Dunno how much simpler you can get. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø
Show threadLauren Weinstein
@TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic That's basically arrogance. Telling people less technically sophisticated than you (or I) that they don't deserve to be here. How disappointing. You be sure to explain that to the lonely 90-year-old who writes wonderfully well but can't navigate the onboarding. You do that.
Dec 5, 2022 at 5:55amWeb
Show threadTransitBikerDec 5, 2022
@lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic No. itā€™s not arrogant to want everyday people to put an ounce of effort into something they will benefit from long term. I also have no idea why this is such a huge issue for people. The app has a clear step by step process. For real, people are not stupid & assuming everyone needs their hand held is frankly offensive.
Show threadKee HinckleyDec 5, 2022

@TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

ā€œThe app has a clear step by step processā€

Which app would that be? Where? How does it explain the process? How do they find it?

Also, the whole ā€œfind an instance that matches your interestsā€ thing makes no sense to most people. Never mind how they find it. Which interests? Most people donā€™t walk around defining themselves as belonging to one community with one set of interests. I chose Infosec because I knew Iā€™d know some people here. I knew theyā€™d share common interests and values. And that would likely make it stable and a safe place to post. The fact that they post about things Iā€™m interested in was secondary and really not relevantā€”because I can follow them from anywhere. How did I know that? Because I spent 40 years on Twitter and G+ and mailing lists and USENET with some of them. Arrogance is thinking this process is easy and well defined for people who donā€™t spend 90% of their free time online.

And all that is before we get to things like, ā€œWhen should I make a reply public vs. limited and how do I know who will see a limited reply and when?ā€

Show threadTim PantonDec 5, 2022

@nazgul @TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

I do agree that people need help with onboarding, I asked around before I landed here.
But thatā€™s no different from how I would find a lawyer, mobile phone provider or a sport club. We who are here and settled should willingly and patiently offer help, rather than risk streamlining the process so much that we are back to a monolith.

Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 5, 2022
@steely_glint @nazgul @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic I would argue that retaining a lawyer, getting a mobile phone, or joining a sports club is far easier for many people than trying to navigate the onboarding process here, especially for someone who is coming straight from Twitter or Facebook, or for whom this is their first social media experience or they are not already web/app-literate. I see again this seeming "fear" that if you make it too simple it will be ruined. That seems like the wrong criteria for protecting something valuable. Surely there are other filtering criteria available.
Show threadTim PantonDec 5, 2022
@lauren @nazgul @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic ā€œas simple as possible but no simplerā€ is what I am aiming at.
The ā€˜riskā€™ I see is that if we make the onboarding devoid of conscious decisions, then we may set expectations for the rest of the experience, and that would be deceptive.
My experience here is solely the result of my cumulative decisions - making that implicit from the outset is valuable.
Show threadKee HinckleyDec 5, 2022

@steely_glint @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

I honestly donā€™t know what ā€œas simple as possible but no simplerā€ means.

Typically what weā€™d say is that we want to make it easy for those who donā€™t want to give it thought, but still allow customization and decisions if you care.

But you seem to be going a step further and saying people should have to do work to join, because otherwise the difficulty of the rest of the experience will be unexpected.

Isnā€™t the right approach to that saying, ā€œafter we make it easier to onboard, we should make it easier to useā€?

Iā€™m not sure what youā€™re worried about here.

Show threadTim PantonDec 5, 2022

@nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

It's a -simplified- quote from Albert Einstein.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05004-4

The essence of this place is that it doesn't automate decisions for you, you get to make the choices.

The onboarding should reflect that.

Did Einstein really say that?

As the physicistā€™ļ»æs collected papers reach volume 15, Andrew Robinson sifts through the quotes attributed to him.

Show threadKee HinckleyDec 5, 2022

@steely_glint @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

  • Thatā€™s an elitist take.
  • Nothing remains the same forever.
  • Itā€™s perfectly possible to do both.
    • Show threadTim PantonDec 5, 2022

    @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

    We will have to agree to disagree.

    I don't believe that expecting people to make choices is elitist.

    Hoarding the necessary information to make those choices is.

    So is needlessly over-complicating them.

    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic
    TL;DR: Agree with Lauren. Onboarding needs improvement. Better than it was. Let's avoid another "eternal September."

    I have to agree with Lauren. A thread.

    Remember that many people are somewhat computer illiterate, even in 2022.

    Some examples.

    In a job I had before I retired 4 years ago, many of the end user community would conflate the computer on their desk with the server in the back room. 1/6

    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic They knew which buttons to press on the screen. Changing how the screen was laid out might cause them to not be able to do their job until someone explained the new layout.

    A friend of a friend just got their first smart phone the other day. Yes, in 2022. They had had a cell phone previously, but with just a small screen. My friend is now trying to get their friend to try text messaging. 2/6

    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022
    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Then there are disabled communities that have organized over on the bird site. I have read comments from them that the Mastodon onboarding process is too burdensome. Their disability already takes up a lot of their time and mental energy. So many are staying at the bird site for now. 3/6
    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Yes, we do not want to create an "eternal September", like some of us saw a long time ago on USENET, by just dumping users on mastodon. Here's a reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

    I think that may be what Tim and others are concerned about. 4/6

    Eternal September - Wikipedia

    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic But at the same time, the onboarding process here could use some streamlining versus what I remember doing a month and a half ago. No, sorry, I wasn't taking notes a month and a half ago. So I don't remember the exact process.

    So, just to experience a current version of the process, I tried https://joinmastodon.org. I didn't actually create an account. 5/6

    Mastodon - Decentralized social media

    Learn more about Mastodon, the radically different, free and open-source decentralized social media platform.

    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 5, 2022
    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic
    That WAS much friendlier than what I remember from a month ago. It's not quite there, yet. E.g. the "Legal structure" question asks "Public organization" vs "private individual". Is that about me, or the instance I might join? Does joinmastodon.org point users to movetodon.org, after account creation,
    so users reattach to their old network of people? 6/6
    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 6, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

    Here's an article about #disability on Twitter and how users in that community are staying there. The article is short on details about barriers to entry for Mastodon.

    https://www.inquirer.com/health/twitter-elon-musk-disability-social-media-20221206.html

    Disabled Philadelphians fear Muskā€™s Twitter purchase will cost them a unique digital haven.

    Changing standards and financial instability are making disabled users of Twitter anxious they may lose a valuable tool for connection and advocacy.

    The Philadelphia Inquirer
    Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 6, 2022
    @setha45 @steely_glint @nazgul @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic When they come under attack by Elon's toxic bros and other events he will precipitate, they will be unlikely to want to stay. They should be planning to exit now.
    Show threadJari PennanenDec 6, 2022

    @lauren @setha45 @steely_glint @nazgul @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp

    There is instance: https://disabled.social/ it is only month old, has now 3k users. It's ran by @McCullohMD

    Yes, some are planning migration clearly.

    disabled.social

    A place for people who are chronically ill, mentally ill, disabled, and friends/families/allies to come together, meet, share knowledge and random banter, and just about anything else.

    Mastodon hosted on disabled.social
    Show threadSeth D. AlfordDec 7, 2022
    @Ciantic I submitted a request to join.
    Show threadSeaGoatGirlDec 5, 2022

    @steely_glint @nazgul @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

    There are opportunities to simplify the onboarding process while still requiring individual choice .

    A better launch page would be a huge improvement. As a small example "instance" or "server" has no intuitive meaning to a non-tech person. Something like "Home Base" would be better: "Choose your Home Base and from there, you can see entire Fediverse." People can understand a Home Base.

    Show threadTim PantonDec 5, 2022

    @SeaGoatGirl
    Yes, I agree that language/guidance should be improved, although it isn't easy.

    Home Base is a DIY chain store in the UK, so that particular term means something _quite_ else to someone who grew up in a non-baseball nation.

    'Community' or 'Club' feel closest - or perhaps 'mastodon affiliate' is clearer.

    Show threadAlien BOBDec 5, 2022
    @nazgul @TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic I would definitely recommend following @mastodonmigration and subscribing to #mastodonmigration and #twittermigration tags. And tell your followers and friends about these by boosting their posts. Calling the migration to Mastodon a PITA is just a symptom of not being introduced to all the help available.
    Show threadNate BarhamDec 5, 2022

    @TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic They donā€™t, and they arenā€™t stupid. Theyā€™ll just go somewhere thatā€™s easier (and therefore full of all that toxicity). People choose convenience. Over and over and over.

    If Mastodon (and itā€™s users) really do care about the values they often espouse, they would *want* to make onboarding effortless so that people donā€™t have to suffer the likes of the other profit-motivated sites.

    Show threadBernhard Lill šŸŽ™ļøšŸ“² ā˜‘ļøDec 5, 2022
    @NateBarham
    Problem is: there is no ONE Mastodon, Nate. And so far many hosts of various instances have really done a good job in dealing with the sudden onslaught of Twitter migrants. :)
    @TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @Ciantic
    Show threadNate BarhamDec 5, 2022
    @dermedientyp @TransitBiker @lauren @daskeit @calcifer @Ciantic Thatā€™s true. I get the decentralization aspect. But there *is* a ā€œMastodon the softwareā€ and a ā€Mastodon the websiteā€ which most people experience first. That could be shifted, perhaps by a dominant third party app that ā€œregularā€ people begin using en masse. For now though, onboarding has far too much friction to feel the same level of convenience as other services for most folks.
    Show threaddaskeitDec 5, 2022

    @lauren @TransitBiker @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic

    itā€™s not that they donā€™t deserve to be here. (Theyā€™re welcome!) Itā€™s that they deserve to make choices for themselves.

    The flip side of having agency is the effort of exercising agency in a meaningful way. All weā€™re discussing here is choosing an instance. Right? Would you move into a place without checking it out first?

    How is that arrogance?

    Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 5, 2022
    @daskeit @TransitBiker @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Here is good take on that question: https://infosec.exchange/@nazgul/109459680853541398
    Kee Hinckley (@[email protected])

    @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected] ā€œThe app has a clear step by step processā€ Which app would that be? Where? How does it explain the process? How do they find it? Also, the whole ā€œfind an instance that matches your interestsā€ thing makes no sense to most people. Never mind how they find it. Which interests? Most people donā€™t walk around defining themselves as belonging to one community with one set of interests. I chose Infosec because I knew Iā€™d know some people here. I knew theyā€™d share common interests and values. And that would likely make it stable and a safe place to post. The fact that they post about things Iā€™m interested in was secondary and really not relevantā€”because I can follow them from anywhere. How did I know that? Because I spent 40 years on Twitter and G+ and mailing lists and USENET with some of them. Arrogance is thinking this process is easy and well defined for people who donā€™t spend 90% of their free time online. And all that is before we get to things like, ā€œWhen should I make a reply public vs. limited and how do I know who will see a limited reply and when?ā€

    Infosec Exchange
    Show threadLauren WeinsteinDec 5, 2022
    @daskeit @TransitBiker @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic And I'll add, from the info provided, it's almost impossible to judge how stable an instance will be, how loaded, or even if you can actually join in a timely manner -- if there's a waiting list for how long? I spent hours looking over all that stuff before I started here a month ago. I went through two instances (so, multiple address changes) and despite using the official transfer mechanisms lost followers each time. At that stage, I decided to run my own instance. Problems solved, but not a solution for most folks.
    Show thread***Dave Hill šŸ‡ŗšŸ‡øšŸ‡ŗšŸ‡¦šŸ‡ØšŸ‡¦šŸ‡¬šŸ‡±šŸ³ļøā€šŸŒˆšŸ³ļøā€āš§ļøDec 5, 2022

    @lauren @daskeit @TransitBiker @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Speaking from my own experience, I did the joinmastodon.org thing and, lacking any specific "interest" or "community" I could find on the list, chose a medium-largish instance for stability. And then did a lot of debirdify to locate people I knew.

    But I'm a fairly savvy IT guy. I would never suggest to less-techy family members that they just wing it; I'd want to help them onto the experience. It's not easy.

    Show threaddaskeitDec 5, 2022
    @lauren @TransitBiker @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic these are fair points. Re stability and wait lists - also probably specific to the Twitter exodus. The influx of new users is at a record high. Most instances are just regular people, not formal biz/orgs. So thereā€™s some strain as the network grows.
    Show threadmathewDec 5, 2022
    @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic @lauren When I wrote up a quick guide for people to get on the Fediverse, on of the things I included was a link to a web site that would tell them how stable and loaded instances are. I think a lot of the onboarding issue is a documentation problem, and free software is usually bad at that unfortunately.
    Show threadMartin Vermeer 86 47Dec 5, 2022
    @lauren @TransitBiker @daskeit @calcifer @dermedientyp @Ciantic Moving to the Fediverse is actually a cultural change. There is only so much you can do with software only.
    There should be a process for inviting people in, that makes you a 'guardian angel' for someone to negotiate all those initial hurdles of finding your instance, finding and following the people you want to or did on the old site, etc. Humanize the process.
    #culture #acculturation #onboarding