Hans Gerwitz
Dan Sinker*whispers* most people don't care about decentralization and governance models, they just want someplace to hang out that's not a hassle.
Tim Welch 
@dansinker And maybe not controlled by a billionaire megalomaniac.
Alexander Hamizdat 🌹@t @dansinker see this is where they start to care very deeply about the net effects of those things
Ms. Penny Oaken@alexhammy209 @t @dansinker “most people” have built their lives on the ability to trust that they can delegate the task of regulation and moderation to specialists.
That falls apart when there’s no ability to claw back regulation and moderation from specialists in subverting proper regulation and moderation — or even an awareness that they’re being subverted, or that reform is necessary.
That falls apart when there’s no ability to claw back regulation and moderation from specialists in subverting proper regulation and moderation — or even an awareness that they’re being subverted, or that reform is necessary.
@PennyOaken @t @dansinker I'm reading "people don't care about moderation until it gets bad, and then it's too late to claw back." is that about right?
@alexhammy209 @t @dansinker that’s an important aspect, yes. Another aspect is that they do care, they just are not well-educated about the red flags.
For example, people circumvent work safety regs because “they don’t make sense” or “it’s not that big a deal”, and never learned to caution themselves around that kind of thinking.
For example, people circumvent work safety regs because “they don’t make sense” or “it’s not that big a deal”, and never learned to caution themselves around that kind of thinking.
@alexhammy209 @t @dansinker or they go along with their boss or coworkers ignoring safety regs, and the incentives for that kind of go-along behaviour.
@PennyOaken @t @dansinker ugh I know the ones :(
"Why do you have to hold both of these handles to operate the press? Let me just tie one down." All fun and games until you get crushed to death.
@PennyOaken @t @dansinker note: the two handles is to make sure you absolutely cannot operate the press from any place other than between the handles
Abi Sutherland@alexhammy209 @PennyOaken @t @dansinker
How about “you have to discuss governance issues in terms of effects they care about rather than abstractions”?
FediThing has moved!@PennyOaken @alexhammy209 @t @dansinker
Most people don't care about politics, but democracy is still worth fighting for because the alternative is worse.
Good governance itself is boring, but the stuff it defends isn't boring at all.
Rachael Ava 💁🏻♀️@PennyOaken @alexhammy209 @t @dansinker Basically, what they want is the digital equivalent to a nursing home, so that they can have someone else that they have no control over take care of the digital responsibilities for them, even when the people running this metaphorical nursing home turns against them and starts abusing them.
@t billions of people on Facebook's platforms would beg to differ on this point
@dansinker Ha - fair point. The Zuck is so robotic, I forget he’s a person not an algorithm.
@t see also: Amazon.
@dansinker Oh bother. Well, at least there aren’t any crazy billionaires controlling the people’s currency, crypto.
.̴̧͙̠̟̘͂̀̄̾̓G̷͌IF
bookish@t @dansinker and not filled with nazis
David Brauer@dansinker yes! Or full of malicious dipshits
Baratunde@dansinker true true
Heike Naumann@dansinker But It's worth thinking about how this can be achieved / improved.
I'm certainly one of those "most people", but I appreciate transparency about how the environment that I contribute to is run.
I'm certainly one of those "most people", but I appreciate transparency about how the environment that I contribute to is run.
Hanneke@dansinker @sashag I didn’t care either… until very recently when I tried Mastodon for the first time and omg have I started to care
Justin Fitzsimmons@dansinker we need governance models because of the people who go out of their way to make things a hassle for everyone else. 😑
マリオ (Mario Menti)@dansinker true, but don't you think the two are related?
LilMikeSFAlso might be nice if it wasn't a nazi incel hive
Ricki Yasha Tarr@dansinker I never even heard of most of these things until I got here lol
Ruby S.@RickiTarr @dansinker
But you were still benefiting from active moderation even if you never thought about it.
But you were still benefiting from active moderation even if you never thought about it.
@ruby @dansinker Oh most definitely, I really appreciate it, but it's definitely not something I thought about.
Aaron Williamson 🍄@dansinker @ankaracode Most people don’t care about civics and just want to have a nice life. But we teach it in school anyway, because too few people pay attention to it, it falls apart.
Mark Gardner@ankaracode @copiesofcopies @dansinker *used to teach it
thus the ongoing collapse
Sam Bosbach@copiesofcopies @dansinker Getting people to understand that a nice experience is contingent on user participation and underlying infrastructure is one of those frustrating battles. "Ignorance is bliss" is too strong. There will always be a coterie of self-selected, highly interested folks who try to balance optimization with the opiate of the masses.
As a civics teacher, teaching kids how government impacts EVERYTHING they care about is the key to engagement.
@s_bosbach I’m so tickled to get a reply from an actual civics teacher 😃 What’s one way you connect these dots for your students?
@copiesofcopies I do periodic current events days with a protocol that's all about processing what the event is (facts, questions, comments, feelings), why they personally care about it (identity intersections), & civics/govt intersections (curriculum tie-in and personal action possibilities).
Even in weeks like this where most of them just want to talk about the World Cup, there's a wealth of civics/govt connections that get them really engaged and worked up.
@s_bosbach you sound like a terrific teacher.
@copiesofcopies Thanks! We try our best!
MrJoeAbraham@s_bosbach @copiesofcopies I like the civics analogy, Aaron. Any nascent thoughts on how to account for (at least for me, but I assume for others, too) a differential learning curve, and (again, at least my own perception of) reluctance among the tech community to build a more accessible “curriculum”? Basically, where are the systems-architecture, data-privacy, etc., analogues to “I’m Just a Bill” going to come from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_Just_a_Bill
@s_bosbach @copiesofcopies This is just a variation on the age-old issue of specialists (e.g., litigators deeply immersed in one case) needing to communicate with a general audience (e.g., lay juries and busy judges)—but application always needs to be tweaked to fit the relevant would-be teachers and learners
@MrJoeAbraham @s_bosbach It’s a problem that’s been with community-produced open source since the beginning: tech-driven projects tend to be worse at UI, UX, documentation and other things that would drew adoption among less-technical users. And they’re rarely good at supporting contributors who are good at these things.
@MrJoeAbraham @s_bosbach I guess it’ll take people who stand athwart the normie/techie divide to do outreach, and up to project leaders to work harder at welcoming non-programmer contributors. I wish I could tell you who was working on these things, because I know they exist.
@MrJoeAbraham @copiesofcopies I don't know what exists in that regard, but I'd think that it's something that should be included in comp sci and coding curricula at the secondary level. Setting aside that many schools don't even offer courses like that.
@MrJoeAbraham Digital literacy, like media literacy, are skills that should be deliberately taught much more than they are in middle and high schools.
E-werd@dansinker It's a trojan horse, you get them to accept the platform then they get used to the idea.
AnnTrue, most people don't care about the work and thought that goes into designing the things they use.
However, there's always a lot of work and thought that goes into designing complex, useful things that are intuitive to use.
I'm sorry the discussions about how to run mastodon are tiresome for you. I really appreciate the community involvement in figuring out how to make this work best for everyone.
The other option is is worse.
bbennettesq 
@dansinker Correct. Humans are social creatures and just want to find their community.
robpennoyer@dansinker I get it, but I wish we asked a little more of people. The technical details of federation are tricky, but the concept is not. Everyone mostly gets how email works, even if they don't know what SMTP is.
@robpennoyer I would argue that most people have absolutely no idea how email works
Lilian Edwards@dansinker @robpennoyer please stop ending descriptions of Masto w "Just like email." 99% of ppl (a) do not think abt how email works and (b) if they do don't think it's anything like Masto.
@dansinker I worked with end users for years. I think if you ask them to explain email, sure, they're not going to come up with a completely articulated description. But if you ask email users smaller questions, they'll reveal they know more than the "slightest idea"
- why do people have a separate work email address and a personal one? How is this different from having a Facebook and a TikTok account?
- who makes and enforces the rules for how you use your work email?
- why do people have a separate work email address and a personal one? How is this different from having a Facebook and a TikTok account?
- who makes and enforces the rules for how you use your work email?
@dansinker
- why can't just anyone get a whitehouse.gov address?
- how can you tell when someone emails you from outside your org vs within it?
- why does spam usually come from outside your org?
All of these are related to federation.
- why can't just anyone get a whitehouse.gov address?
- how can you tell when someone emails you from outside your org vs within it?
- why does spam usually come from outside your org?
All of these are related to federation.
Greg Greene@dansinker That’s absolutely right — but the truth of it, I think, makes it incumbent on those who _do_ care to make any decentralized, non-privatized platform a fun, easy hang.
@ggreeneva yeppppp
@dansinker Gotta meet people where they are, as was often said years ago some campaign’s office in the Prudential building.
Hein Ragas@dansinker @ggreeneva I don't think the current decentralized model helps in making it a fun, safe space. But I also don't see the developers care all that much about it.
The end result is that marginalized people are still marginalized on the Mastodon network.
The end result is that marginalized people are still marginalized on the Mastodon network.
Sandy@dansinker which is why hivesocial had been reallt popular even if it has heavy load times now
Florian Hehlen@dansinker you are framing it incorrectly. Nobody wants decentralised anything anymore than they want centralised anything. They have been sold a bill of goods is all. Other governed social networks (ex: going to a pub, joining a club, being a volunteer, member of an association, etc.) have gone through of review to make them safe and transparent. We even have barriers within most governments that stops one department from asking about peoples records in other departments.
berkes 🐝 🚐 🏄 🌱@dansinker but what about the rest of the people? Those who do care about decentralization and governance models?
Why should they even consider these "most" people?
Most people aren't beekeepers, they just want honey in their yoghurt. Yet here I am, a passionate beekeeper. Is that stupid? Am I wrong keeping my own bees, just because most people aren't interested in becoming a beekeeper?
Jeff@dansinker Sadly I believe this is true.
Sean Tilley@dansinker Yeah, on the surface, you're probably right. But when people start to see what's possible outside of the walled garden, and the things they couldn't do before, the experience can be really liberating. Many of the boundaries on centralized services are totally artificial, and exist just to keep people fenced in.
The technical stuff is more important for the people who are running the different parts to make this not a total hellscape.
@krisnelson@dansinker sure, but tbh most people barely care about voting irl either, they just want someplace to live that’s not a hassle.