Mastodawn

kristenfiniti Nov 25, 2022

Lockdownyourlife

Jesus Fuckbuttering Christ.

The amount of dipshit reply guys to someone saying they're experiencing harassment/abuse shouldn't be:

"You should find a better instance"
"You can mute, block and fediblock them"
"You're being difficult"
"You should read all the block lists for other instances and follow those"
"You should use different hashtags"
"I haven't experienced any harassment or problems and I've been here for years"
"You should create filters and a central list so everyone can find it"
"Don't complain unless you're willing to solve the problem"

Those are a few of the replies I've received, in addition to being told:

"You should be shot in the uterus"
"You should be more careful"
"You should unalive yourself"
"You should be killed"
"You're a whore"

There's a few more vile things to add to that list, but you get the idea.

My point is this, content moderation and centralized reporting is something that should be considered.

I understand it won't stop all the harassment, but it might give a better way of tracking the problems.

I am not/not volunteering to spearhead it because I already handle enough of this shit in my personal and business life.

I don't have the spoons left.

#infosec #WomenInTech #informationsecurity #contentmoderation #safety #privacy #activist #OSINT

Kevin Gamin Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife It's no wonder users like yourself and @chanda are so frustrated by Mastodonians.

Christopher Helton Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Years ago I wrote an article about women being harassed or assaulted at gaming conventions. Men responded by saying that women should wear body cams to conventions.

fibonacci girl Nov 25, 2022

@dorkland @Lockdownyourlife
Putting the burden of stopping misogyny on women is a well worn tactic of the patriarchy.
#FuckThePatriarchy
#StopMalePrivilege
#Feminism

Exiled New Yorker- Connie Nov 25, 2022

@fibonaccigirl I so want to pin this content to the top of my profile!
It says I can. Do you mind?

fibonacci girl Nov 25, 2022

@Pagan_Activist I don't mind and thank you for asking.

BagheeraAltered

@Lockdownyourlife fuckbuttering is an amazing word

Dave Kearns Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife
A resounding "NO" to centralized reporting.
Report the comments to your admin and the commentors admin. Mechanisms are in place. That's how a decentralized distributed platform works.

alternative_be✅🖖🏻Nov 26, 2022

@dak3 @Lockdownyourlife That’s what I generally do. Report and talk to admin and report to the harasser’s admin as well. You can do the latter anonymously btw.

Icepick87 Dec 2, 2022

@dak3 you should realize how frustrating it is when said admin is part of the same circle as the problem itself. It's the company they keep.

That's a truly useless suggestion you have here.

CISSP/ISO27K Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I’m sorry you went through this.

Gabriel Bauman Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife we need better tools to manage our view of the world on here, and maybe to be able to delegate some of that to third parties if we choose. I could see a framework for pluggable moderation policies spawning a marketplace for solutions.

But pretending a centralized moderation system can just be retrofitted and imposed on the Fediverse is not helpful.

We need tackle the problems together, without forcing everyone to look through the same filters.

n0r Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife
"My point is this, content moderation and centralized reporting is something that should be considered."

Just to make sure I understood this correctly: Are you asking for a centralized institution to rule over the distributed system?

mattwebdev Nov 25, 2022

@n0r @Lockdownyourlife everyone wants a central authority until they realize who that central authority would be...and until that authority tries to take action on them.

If this platform was really built "by and for white men." Who do you think would be that central authority?

mattwebdev Nov 25, 2022

@n0r @Lockdownyourlife and to be clear. I don't disagree with the issues raised, and i definitely know there are some fucked up people. But instead of looking back at a centralized platform...we should be looking for solutions in a decentralized way.

fibonacci girl Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Or, men could call out other men and help stop the misogyny as well as support the women being harassed.
#StopMalePrivilege
#FuckPatriarchy
#Feminism

Nicholas Weaver Nov 25, 2022

@fibonaccigirl @Lockdownyourlife

Plus the space is just better without the harassing assholes. It is better for the bulk of us men if we get rid of the mysoginist aholes.

fibonacci girl Nov 25, 2022

@ncweaver All spaces are better without misogyny but women can't just opt out. It's on men to stop this.

Meryl O'Rourke Hi!Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife also... "fuckbuttering" 👏👏👏👏

RabbitPellets Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Without enforcement of basic interpersonal norms called for here Mastodon will just devolve into another shitty dweeb space.

Aunty Miche🛡🇺🇦Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife "Why didn't she" and "She shoulda". Almost like mantras.

Aunty Miche🛡🇺🇦Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife (Previous version of this toot removed because of an EXTREMELY unfortunate typo.)

pk Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife it would be good if you could post without the obscene blasphemy.

Jeff the Alien Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Is there anything I can do? How can I best be helpful?

Shoq 🌿Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife True. But going further, what should the response be?

Reza Rahman ☮Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife @Gargron this is unfortunate indeed. I hope the Mastodon folks are thinking about this problem. Content moderation is one of the factors for moving away from Twitter for me.

jeSuisatire neindochohh ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ Nov 25, 2022

don't ask what masto can do for you but ..

TrismegistusMx Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife How do you know you can trust your authorities to only block the "right" people? Who are the "right" people? It's crazy watching supposed leftists reinvent cops on the fediverse with no sense of irony.

@Lockdownyourlife I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said, but if "You can mute, block and fediblock them" isn't a proper answer, then why do we even have that feature?

Elle and Carl Carelle Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife nothing but love as you navigate the hate!! Happy to assist in throwing bullshit flags at people being dicks.

Waitwhat Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife thanks for your tenacity. What a shame the scale/impact of the inevitable misogynistic (and other brands of) haters was not anticipated by the developers in their decentralised vision. Truly hope the horse hasn’t bolted.

Kris Hardy Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I remember this project that Maymay Moskovitz set up to deal with abusers on FetLife. I'll see is I can dig it up. My memory is that it is a Google sheet that people can commit to and a browser extension which blocked (or maybe just showed a warning?) I'm wondering if something like that might work here.

Kris Hardy Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife https://maybemaimed.com/playground/predator-alert-tool-for-fetlife/ (You might need to search archives for it. The site itself is down. Would something like this help?

Predator Alert Tool for FetLife (formerly the FetLife Alleged Abusers Database Engine, or FAADE) « Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed

BeegyPsi Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife

This is the fundamental problem with the Mastodon approach.

Mastodon as a protocol solves nothing.

Mastodon as a service/platform doesn't exist.

Mastodon as an ecosystem is just the internet.

Ultimately, the "free with no ads" approach hasn't come up with a solution for the work required to make an actual product work.

Twitter, as a technology is trivial. It was the active moderation and corporate guidance that shaped it into a success

Chiclet Nov 25, 2022

It depends on the measure of "success".
Twitter was a cesspool long before Musk. It was popular, but that didn't make it a safe place, even with heavy handed moderation.

People love heavy moderation when the moderator agrees with them.

iwein Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife righteous anger, all right. But I genuinely wonder: how can we find the middle ground between [A] shutting someone up from a central moderation point forever (which is impossible and ethically wrong, but easy to implement), and [B] letting someone harass freely in lieu of free speech, decentralization, and anarchism (all of which I kind of like).

iwein Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife ... I'd like all to have the freedom to be an asshole, and the opportunity to better ourselves, but also to protect users from abuse. This is not trivial at all in my mind... Am I missing something?

Youssef | يوسف Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Global moderation is exclusively always coming from Americans, disregarding the complexities of a system that is global. Twitter was an American company and it was heavily involved with US politics, etc. Imposing a system on the fediverse is just another form of America dominating cyberspace. To illustrate this, racism against white people is so real and so dangerous in some parts of the world. How would we mediate all that complexity? Especially with servers hosted all over

geobeck 🏳️‍🌈Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife One idea I've proposed is to standardize the format of open block lists to include users, instances, and reasons for blocking. Specialized instances could aggregate those lists to provide a reliable source of harmful users and servers.

Instances that implemented high-quality blocking protocols would gain reputation and be more widely promoted. Those that slacked off would lose traction--or be blocked by reputable servers if they didn't implement any collaborative moderation.

geobeck 🏳️‍🌈Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife It wouldn't be a quick or complete solution, but it could provide a pathway to improvement while maintaining server autonomy. Eventually a small number of high-quality aggregators would become the de facto standard for filtering harmful users.

Meanwhile it's important for all of us to keep pressure on server admins to moderate actively while pressing for better federated solutions.

em dee (they/them)Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife #FedSplainers

Chris Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife aside from the lol at fuckbuttering this post has me frustrated and a little dismayed that we’re still getting vile people onto what we all hope will be a better platform than how Twitter ended up. 💯 agree with you re more sophisticated reporting/moderation.

If I ever see behaviour like you describe I will always call it out. I hope everyone sees when it’s happening so the community can take action. I’ve boosted and I hope others will too for wider awareness.

Jeff Fecke Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I'm just a noob here myself, but I haven't had any harassment.

Because I'm a cishet white guy.

Harassment is never acceptable and it's never the fault of the harassed. If the community is valuable, harassment is worth policing, and if it isn't worth policing then it won't last as a community. I know, Mastodon is largely run by volunteers, but that doesn't change anything. It just means the volunteers need to step up their game.

slim_vim Nov 25, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife It didn't take many days of engagement until I started to notice the patterns you list that make existence here a struggle/difficulty. It's depressing.

geoff332 Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife
This was all predictable. I wrote this shortly after joining Mastodon (the last series on culture is the most relevant).
https://mstdn.social/@geoff332/109320025826587700

What most people seem to miss is that centralisation isn't an accident or an anomaly. Centralisation is a natural result of scale - people generally like scale's benefits (not everyone, but most). This is basically what Weber was saying over 100 years ago with his rational-legal authority - and it's still very true.

geoff332 (@[email protected])

Like many, I've come to Mastodon because I think another site is about to become corrupted beyond use. I've been reading a lot about the place we're coming to - who created the Fediverse and why. I can't claim to be an expert in Mastodon after a few days - but I do know quite a bit about tech, business, and culture. So I thought I'd share some thoughts. I can see three areas where there's likely to be tensions with the influx of birdfugees: the technology, commercials, and culture.

Mastodon 🐘

geoff332 Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife
Of course the other side of all that was scale lead to centralisation of power (yes, mostly to cis white men). That in turn created the Weber's iron cage (very similar to Marx's alienation). The difference is it's a direct product of scale.

This all a bit abstract, but what this is getting to is that with Mastodon growing rapidly, the things that worked at small scale won't work at large scale. And that will produce some pretty deep culture change (not necessarily good).

geoff332 Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife
New tools can help but won't fix things. That means changes in power. Power currently rests with instance admins; I think it'll shift to the federation process. Wherever it goes, it will initially lead to fragmentation. But we like scale, so the next step will be consolidation to a small number of big instances (like the dotcom boom consolidated to a few big tech giants).

In a perfect world, that power won't end up with cis white men (like me!) But...

Steve Revere Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife , sorry you have to deal with that. It sucks.

MatrixWyrm Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife It's like people aren't capable of making the leap from "these tools can be helpful to you in the short term" to "how do we change the culture or enforce norms on people who willingly go outside of those?"

Courtney Heard 🇨🇦Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, but “Jesus fuckbuttering Christ” is glorious and you are my favourite today.

Keith Daggett Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife

I'm not sure how this would ameliorate anything, but here goes:

"Fuck those guys".

EmmaDingle Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife eurgh, hope most of your feed is better. Moderation is going to be increasingly important as things scale. The bigger the crowd the more emboldened the obnoxious get.

ML2 Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I can definitely see shared reporting systems in the plural happening. Even if users don't all adopt the same system, having multiple publicly accessible, searchable systems, together with standards for inclusion (like evidence) would be a massive improvement over the current approaches.

It doesn't help that a) some instances keep their lists of moderated servers/individuals private for reasons essentially reducible to security by obscurity and b) that there are cases where the fediblock hashtag has been abused to spread malicious disinfo about others, causing that system to be seen as less trustworthy. (Currently the instance I'm on is on the receiving end of a drama caused by a bad actor spreading disinformation that way.)

Anders Borch Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife there are a lot of terrible people out there. I wish we could educate them all about the benefits of being compassionate to others around them.

I don’t know how to do that. I don’t have any good solutions to how to fix humanity.

I have a proposal on how we might get better at automatically filtering them out of our feeds while we try to think of ways to make humanity better:

https://mastodon.cyborch.com/@anders/109406039666688553

Anders Borch (@[email protected])

Okay, so hear me out: What if someone took all of the toots from the “free speech” servers, categorized them as say “pro-freedom”, and all of the toots from the rest of the servers, and categorized them as say “pro-friendly” and fed all of this categorized text data to tensor flow… Would that make an effective #machinelearning filter for a server so a #mastoadmin wouldn’t have to maintain a list of blocked servers?

Mastodon

Melinda Magpie Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Thank you. I agree 100%

Ben Aveling Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife How would/should centralized reporting work?

JoFloHoosier Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife , I agree with you on all of the above. However, I do think each person joining the #Fediverse should seek out an #instsnce where they can feel safe & at home.

PC Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife I’m not clear on the underlying assumptions here. Seems to me you are flaming a whole set of Mastodons about behavior you want to impose on them. This is tribalism in my opinion.

Jesse Nov 26, 2022

@Lockdownyourlife Sorry to hear you're going through this.