Jana SemrauNov 5, 2022
Dr. Casey Fiesler

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: If you switch Mastodon instances, it's easy to transfer your network/follows over (I did this), but NOT your content. Is this right? If you change instances you can't move your toots to the new one?

This makes the "don't be held hostage by a platform!" benefit less compelling doesn't it? Like what if someone just doesn't pay the bill for your instance? All your content's gone?

Am I missing something?

Nov 5, 2022 at 3:35pmWeb
Show threadDamon KiesowNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I had the same question. You can export your content, but not import it at the new instance. Which seems less-than-portability. https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/
Show threadAlexander L. HayesNov 5, 2022

@dkiesow @cfiesler This seems like a software limitation though, no?

It's not implemented now, but there *could* exist a way in the future if someone implemented it?

Show threadDamon KiesowNov 5, 2022
@hayesall @cfiesler Yes - seems like it could be remedied down the line. Same with the difficulty in viewing or one-click following people from other instances, etc.
Show threadBastian Blankenburg 🤝 🛡Nov 5, 2022
@dkiesow @cfiesler If the instance was shut down, you can"t export anymore. You're dependent on the operators to give fair warning time.
Show threadJo / Jojo Nov 5, 2022
@cfiesler That's correct, it does not move your toots, and it did move my followers but not my followees (though it did let me download those as a CSV and re-upload to the new location). To be honest, I didn't feel a 'hostage', I don't need to always keep everything forever. We cannot hang on to IRL conversations either. What I want to keep, I can back up
Show threadNickNov 5, 2022
@jojowiththeflow @cfiesler This could lead to a lot of broken or half-deleted conversations in the future if there's a large exodus of users from a big Mastodon server. I guess the question is how transient the content is expected to be.
Show threadJo / Jojo Nov 5, 2022
@nanovad @cfiesler True, but that's no different to the half convos on Twitter with people deleting their accounts/content or folks like me who from time to time delete their past tweets (including our halves of conversations)
Show threadTristan HendersonNov 5, 2022
@jojowiththeflow @cfiesler I had the same experience (followers moved but not followees). I hadn't realised this and was unable to download the CSV since once I migrated, the old account was locked, including the page where you can download your followers/followees. I ended up using the API and curl to grab my followees and import them.
Show threadSozialweltenNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I don't think that you are missing something as of now.
Show threadSeth RosenNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I have a lot to learn
Show threadJesper Dr.amsch Nov 5, 2022

@cfiesler That's correct.

You can export your content though at https://hci.social/settings/export but I don't see a way to import them...

hci.social

This Mastodon instance is for the community of human-computer interaction researchers and practitioners. Mastodon is like Twitter but better because it’s open-source, decentralized, and federated. This instance is hosted on Google Cloud Platform servers, paid for by @Princeton HCI, and administered by @YuhanLiu, @nigini, @axz, @andresmh.

Mastodon hosted on hci.social
Show threadJuan LuisNov 5, 2022
@jesper @cfiesler I'm wondering to what extent is possible with the current APIs to "retrofit" that content. I migrated from a big instance this week and assumed I could retain my content, but at the moment you can't.
Show threadKonrad M. LawsonNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I wonder if one problem is if you could easily destroy and move all old posts it would either instantly break all links to old posts and replies to them, or require a lot of API traffic to reconnect everything or redirect. The instances are little packets that get sent out and stored in all the instances connected to you? You would have to reach into all those instances with copies of your toots and tell them ‘these messages need their “from” address changed’ or the like?
Show threadErin KissaneNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I think that’s right. Seems like this complicates professional vs social use a bit.
Show threadLukas SimonisNov 5, 2022

@cfiesler I wonder what these "technical limitations" are. is it to do with how mastodon distributes data, or is it just that big import jobs would overwhelm servers?

https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/moving/

Moving or leaving accounts - Mastodon documentation

Take your information and do what you want with it.

Show threadLukas SimonisNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I suppose one issue is that it would allow people to effectively rewrite history, by uploading altered content
Show threadArjen P. de Vries Timmers 🕊️Nov 5, 2022
@lsimonis @cfiesler Exactly, that is a serious concern. Also, links between past toots would be quite challenging to manage if they suddenly change their identifier (these are local to the instance they belong to).
Show threadmariahNov 5, 2022

@cfiesler This is true. However, the old account links to the new one and doesn't necessarily disappear (unless instance goes down like you've suggested). Old posts still show up on the previous instance accounts, so I've resorted to linking to those old accounts in my bio.

The risk of an instance going down depends on its admins/policies. I exported previous posts in case uploading them to my current account becomes an option. It's a bit messy still.

Show threadanubis2814Nov 5, 2022
@cfiesler The only fediverse platform that has seemed to fix this issue is hubzilla but its a bit too clunky for the average user. That said like I told my partner, when was the last time you looked through your twitter feed? and she said oh never, and I said exactly you aren't missing that much. That said a feature of what you posted on this day a year or few ago might be fun.
Show threadDr. Casey FieslerNov 5, 2022
@anubis2814 I think that for the average Twitter user it will be okay. But is a reason that Mastodon wouldn't be as viable for content creators.
Show threadDaniel HernandezNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler what do you mean by viable for content creators? I am trying to understand what you worry about the most.
Show threadDr. Casey FieslerNov 6, 2022

@danielhz The potential to lose content is a big deal if you're a content creator.

And I realize that's a risk for being on any platform, but in theory the benefit to moving here as a content creator would be that you could easily move your content between instances but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Show threadDaniel HernandezNov 6, 2022
@cfiesler If by content you mean pictures, writings, videos, etc. I would never use Mastodon for storing or preserving them. I think this is far to be the objective of Mastodon. No one software solution fits all use cases.
Show threadRozzychanNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler
Question, I'm not a twitter user so I don't know. Do people search for and respond to very old posts on twitter?
I know that here you can set an expiration date on your posts whereas other sites keep things forever. On tumblr we talk about zombie posts that rise up from the dead. What was your experience on twitter? #mastodonDifferences
Show threadDr. Casey FieslerNov 5, 2022

@Rozzychan I actually have some links to Twitter threads on my website. :) But at some point if you want to keep something you can always put it somewhere else.

But in part what I think this illustrates is that this configuration could not work for content creators.

Show threadRozzychanNov 5, 2022

@cfiesler
I promote content here that is hosted elsewhere, and I can put it in a pinned post that I can copy and change settings to make sure that pinned posts don't expire.

In truth the reason that I never used a twitter account is that they keep the posts forever and do research on them with your name attached. I suppose that is okay for some, but I always felt that as a teacher one could be fired and retaliated against because of the permanence of twitter threads. #mastodonDifferences

Show threadMichael SingletaryNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler you’re correct - not missing anything. It’s one of my biggest reservations about Mastodon, but seems like something that can be fixed relatively easily. I love the decentralized nature of having many servers run by many different types of people, but I don’t love that they essentially control my presence here. The migration/redirection features are so robust here, it seems like now that we’re hitting critical mass it no longer makes any sense to hold back toot importing.
Show threadGuillaume LegoyNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler
Show threadDan HonNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler your original posts stay at their original URL, so as not to break any links. The account itself transparently redirects to your new account.
Show threadanubis2814Nov 5, 2022
@cfiesler @danhon That assuming the instance doesn't just die in general. Started on one instance, in 2018 and the guy decided he didn't have the energy to keep it going and took the whole thing down. All of it lost, but I in all reality didn't lose anything important.
Show threadDan HonNov 5, 2022
@anubis2814 @cfiesler Yes, correct.
Show threadJos Schuurmans (EN)Nov 5, 2022
@danhon @cfiesler Unless... the administrator of the original instance breaks them, or gets broken. No?
Show threadDan HonNov 5, 2022

@josschuurmans @cfiesler Well, yeah.

The only way you can fix any of that, at all, is to run and self-host your own instance. I moved to a personal instance but even then, I'm paying an admin to do it for me (masto.host). If I really want to be sure, I'd do it myself, on a server I owned. It's all cost/benefit risk.

Show threadtmccormickNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler as a possible kludge & part solution, upon switching to a new Mastodon instance, might one reshare the toots from previous instance, all or selectively? Obvs there would be different metadata, could bombard current followers and those mentioned in toots, be very tedious, etc, but possibly of use in some cases/purposes?
Show threadKyle ThayerNov 5, 2022

@cfiesler My thought is decentralized accounts.

That is, I think there needs to be a way to have your account (with posts and followers and everything) exist on multiple instances at the same time. Then if one goes offline or gets deleted, then your account still exists.

So when you post, it would post form all your instances, but the post would have some unique id to avoid duplication on viewing.

Show threadanubis2814Nov 5, 2022
@cfiesler @kylethayer Look into hubzilla fot that concept of digital nomad.
Show threadjimi adamsNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler this was my experience. I'd posted less than a handful of times though, so wasn't really phased by it at the time.
Show threadeve massacreNov 5, 2022

@cfiesler It stays at your old profile with a message to where you've moved. (Looks like this: https://mastodon.social/@evemassacre)

You can export it for your personal archive but you can't import it to a new server/instance.

Show threadDaniel HernandezNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler This is a good question. If I were an instance administrator, I would not allow people to migrate everything to my instance because each instance has its policies. But if I want to migrate myself to my self-hosted instance, I would allow all my posts. The problem is what happens with posts of other people answering my posts (and any link to my posts). I cannot modify those posts because I don't own other people's posts.
Show threadDaniel HernandezNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler, to my little knowledge, an #ActivityPub post references other posts with URLs (in the inReplyTo property). Hence, if you migrate all your posts, you will break references to them. A possible solution is having redirection in your first host to your new host. However, this is still vulnerable to the closing of the first host. Another solution is to notify every instance with posts pointing to your host, so they can update references.
Show threadCluss StraggleNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I guess if you want something that will follow you, you have to open a personal blog on your own server or favorite service. I don't think this platform is about "content" as "product".
Show threadJenny S-TNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler you can download the old content but not import it, from what I can see. And you can't import lists, either.
Show threadFrankNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler I'm just learning my ways here, but in Preferences -> Data Export it says:
"You can request an archive of your posts and uploaded media. The exported data will be in the ActivityPub format, readable by any compliant software."
Show threadFrankNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler Ah, okay, but no way to import it yet. I see what you mean.
Show threadChiaChatterNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler Maybe :) Corporate-owned social platforms feel like a safe place to store our posts...in reality that's not always the case of course. You have the option of exporting your toots here every week; you know the saying, "if you want something done right, do it yourself"...it's safer to be in charge of our stuff than to entrust others, in general, and this is no different. HTH!
Show threadBastian Blankenburg 🤝 🛡Nov 5, 2022
@ChiaChatter @cfiesler Well, with most corp platforms we at least know that they have an incentive to not arbitrarily shut stuff down (except if it's one of their non-core side projects, like many of Google). Because it's their business.
While most people don"t know anything about the folks running any of the Mastodon instances. And while (most of) them volunteering might seem great at first, that probably increases the chance that they'll stop doing so eventually.
Show threadChiaChatterNov 5, 2022
@databu @cfiesler That's true...I've only been on Mastodon (etc) a couple of years, but I could count on one hand the number of times I've heard about people who were anything less than dedicated...and still have 3-4 fingers left over :). It's all in who we choose to trust with our stuff 🤷‍♀️ there are enough options to suit everybody, and they're not all suitable for everyone.
Show threadMike JohnstonNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler correct if someone stops paying or is maybe bad at tech and breaks a database or something... Ya all gone rip bye
Show threadsimrobNov 5, 2022
@cfiesler it seems so - the infrastructure assumes people care about audience and mutuals, but not so much about content and archive. But in an admin-goes-AWOL situation it seems pretty easy to lose both
Show threadGranite T. RockNov 6, 2022
@cfiesler If my understanding is correct your old posts will still be visible and your old profile will forward to your new one. So the content isn't lost unless the server shuts down. It can continue to be referenced and will direct people to your new profile.