VivekNov 16, 2019
@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
The specific question i raised was were we liberals caught by surprise and shocked by his ascendancy or we were expecting it?
If we were shocked we should analyse where we went wrong. Were we complacent and condescending with the people who we now criticize and label as "bhakts"?
Anyway only navel gazing won't help. The idea is to find a solution and a voice.
Show threadTarique Sani 

@VivekT I personally was shocked and surprised. I always use to boast my India will not allow it. My friends from all religion are very secure and secular they will see through it and not support. All that has unfortunately been proven wrong. People I have known for half a century appear like strangers, nay zombies following some unresistable force. I can’t fathom what could I have done differently

@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Nov 18, 2019 at 8:04amWeb
Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019

@tariquesani
So how are you dealing with it and what do you see is the way forward?

@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@VivekT I don’t think I am dealing with it at all, other than just be stunned! At times doubting my own self...

What do you do when a childhood friend says your death could be an acceptable collateral damage? Or suddenly when my silence is the price asked for “inclusion”?

@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadRanjonaNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan
How can anyone deal with such rabid targeted hatred?
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019
@ranjona a way has to be found!
Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani
I really do not have an answer and I can't say "you should do this...or do that" because I am not facing the problems that you are. I too am looking for answers, which is why I put forth this topic for discussion
@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona @shinjini
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@VivekT Thanks for listening anyway. I have been reading how the Germans dealt with it, unfortunately there are only a few stories of individual heroism. No real answers. Most are rather apologetic pieces of how the seemingly good people all around allowed the genocide to happen and said “that part we never supported”

De novo thinking is needed! The only hope is facist always fall!

@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona @shinjini

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani
Welcome! I am here to listen and try to find a way out. There are many on here that are trying to do the same.
The Germans were perpetrators but were scarred themselves. There must be literature on how the victims dealt with it.
@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona @shinjini
Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@VivekT I kind of saw it coming. NDA’s second term had been a disaster, and Modi hit the right notes on economy and corruption. I don’t remember him bringing up religion during his first campaign.

I knew people wanted a change. But that they would vote BJP so overwhelmingly was a shock.
@tariquesani
@DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@shinjini bigger shock for me was 2019. I could accept people wanted change and were desperate for it in 2014.

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@tariquesani Yes. It was a bigger shock. Worse was they consolidated their position. And this campaign was purely on Hindu-Muslim grounds. Still.

No wonder they’re so brazen about everything.

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@shinjini

Dil na umeed to nahi, nakaam hi to hai
lambi hai gham ki shaam magar shaam hi to hai
- Faiz

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@tariquesani I can empathise. I’m Hindu married to a Muslim and I’m really scared. Husband has seen many riots - in fact, we got married soon after Godhra - but this is the first time he’s worried too.

Still....he’s hoping it will all somehow pass. I’ve been trying to convince him to leave the country, but he says he’s too old to move and start from scratch again.

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@shinjini Honestly I am more scared for my “Hindu” wife. Our religions exists only on paper, we celebrate all festivals because we sincere believe in the culture rather than religion. I can probably understand what your husband is thinking. I don’t want to leave either. This is still my country, my land my people. My brother served the country as a naval officer. Fought two wars. I simply can’t

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@tariquesani It’s same with us. husband does daily Puja. He leads Diwali prayers. We celebrate Christmas & Eid & Diwali & Baisakhi. It’s about culture rather than religion.

When we were getting married, the DM who officiated our wedding made sure our marriage certificate was fast-tracked.

In today’s environment, we would probably have been turned over to VHP goons.

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019

@shinjini
I can understand the desire to leave the country and I wouldn't blame anyone who did that. However that option is not available to all 200 million plus people. Also it is not just the Muslims who having these feelings, there are millions of non Muslims who are feeling depressed as well as oppressed in the present milieu.

@tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019
@VivekT That is true. Not everyone can leave. Also no citizen should be made to feel so threatened that they would want to leave their homeland.
@tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadSalmanNov 18, 2019
@shinjini @VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona The prominent Muslim leaders in BJP are married to Hindu women. But still they are "Hindutva Samrats" just because they are spineless. So they have problem with vocal Muslims. Stop asking questions, become blind follower of Modi, forget Muslim history of this land, that's all they want from Muslims.
Show thread‏محترمہ پربھا ✅Nov 18, 2019

@shinjini this, so much this, although I want to leave too as mine in inter caste marriage

@VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@Deepsealioness I am surprised about that. One would have thought inter caste marriages are the norm nowadays. Hmm the joke is on me eh?
@shinjini @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@VivekT Maybe inter caste marriage is the norm. But not Hindu-Muslim marriage - that becomes “love jihad” 🙄.

@Deepsealioness @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@shinjini Love jihad is something I could not understand. The theory has too many variables that cannot be controlled or predicted. It is a term coined by intellectually lazy and bigoted people.
@Deepsealioness @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@VivekT I wish they were moronic enough and campaign - marry Muslim girls 😎

Oh wait a minute! That would be actually a very smart move...

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019
@VivekT Yeah, it’s a very convenient bogey meant to convince Hindus that they are in khatra @Deepsealioness @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show thread‏محترمہ پربھا ✅Nov 18, 2019

@VivekT 95% Indians marry within caste

@shinjini @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@Deepsealioness Still 90% of marriages in my family are intercaste. So I am living in a pond and thought i was living in an ocean
@shinjini @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show thread‏محترمہ پربھا ✅Nov 18, 2019

@VivekT Your family is an outlier

@shinjini @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019
@Deepsealioness same. But my husband refuses to leave.
@VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show thread‏محترمہ پربھا ✅Nov 18, 2019

@shinjini my husband never wanted to leave India ever, in fact that was the only condition he had when we married, now he is like maybe it’s time

@VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadShinjini | Modern GypsyNov 18, 2019

@Deepsealioness Mine still doesn’t want to :-(

@VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadRAJESH KUMAR (@rkhuria)Nov 18, 2019
@Deepsealioness @shinjini @VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona We need brave people in India.
Show thread‏محترمہ پربھا ✅Nov 18, 2019

@rkhuria to do what? It is so hopeless right now

@shinjini @VivekT @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani Not to be facetious, but you tell them to please consider you dead to them and them to you and you cut the chord that binds... safer to stay sane and non threatened than to be told your loss is acceptable collateral damage; or that silence is the price you must pay.. @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@KayKap
That in my book would be surrender. I am willing to accept what is but I am not willing to surrender. Also, pray where do I go?
These were more of brothers to me than my own brothers! My parents really “integrated” in the true ganga-jamuni sense. I can blame them?

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani Have been where U r at; I considered being alive & able to protest/put fwd my view another day as a win. Emotions are currently hyper-charged; someone will have to take the step back... imho... @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani Sometimes a strategic retreat works wonders; allows you to calm down, think, re-devise and return stronger... understand you are feeling alienated... I am currently receiving similar vibes from some chuddy-buddies ...
@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@KayKap
Well I intend to be there, in view, Stoic in my silence. I anyways rarely speak.

Let’s see how it pans out. Sooner or later somebody will come for them or their children too. Thanks for your concern though.

@VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @salm456 @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Show threadSalmanNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona Everything thats going to happen is already before us. The worst that could happen is a Hindu Rashtra. And Hindu Rashtra is more dangerous for Hindus than for Muslims. If your friends have become hateful, then just observe them closely. Because you may be having the best view of how people are being indoctrinated by hate.
Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@salm456 Tell me about it; So-called Hindu friends are becoming rabid and I am running away.. @tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadSalmanNov 18, 2019
@KayKap @tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona A misconception about secularism has been successfully spread by the Hindutva brigade. They made people believe that it takes away their religious rights. Secularism is not a foriegn concept. It is an integral part of Hindu Culture. This is what secular Hindus need to explain to their bigot friends. And no need to run away. It's them who are afraid, not you.
Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@salm456 Ok. When i referenced running away, it's not because I am afraid... it's because life is too precious to waste on deaf idjits. Have always grown with spiritualism not religion. Personally, all religions are equal, i respect all, i bow my head to all...I have seen this extreme Hindutva being born and I live everyday trying to knock it down... @tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@salm456To me secularism means one thing. Separation of state from religion and I explain that to everyone,
@KayKap @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadSalmanNov 18, 2019

@KayKap @tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona Every Hindutva fan is fooled in one way or the other. Either fooled by willingness of being superior, or fooled politically that has widely happened in last 6 years.

Is it possible for us to think that an ideology based on foolishness will succeed in its mission ?
It won't succeed. But it will surely destroy the idea of India we knew forever.

Show threadnawedbelagamNov 18, 2019
@salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona I still don't think that Hindu rashtra will happen. Yes Muslims specifically and other minorities generally will be suppressed more and more. No hate situation can go on for long.
Show threadAmit Ramesan 🇮🇳Nov 18, 2019

@nawedbelagam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

@salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @ranjona

Boiling frog - Wikipedia

Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@AmitRamesan too ruddy apt! @nawedbelagam @salm456 @tariquesani @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @ranjona
Show threadTarique Sani Nov 18, 2019

@KayKap
It is called the “backfire effect” I posted about it in the morning

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe?fbclid=IwAR0QwgguksgiiWg4SGC2DjI8N6ixaIWPOGtRURr62Em8LZKluP05hCkZZX8

@AmitRamesan @nawedbelagam @salm456 @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @ranjona

You're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you - The Oatmeal

This is a comic about the backfire effect.

Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@tariquesani Long believed in this effect! @AmitRamesan @nawedbelagam @salm456 @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @ranjona
Show threadSalmanNov 18, 2019
@nawedbelagam @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona The hate for secularism itself is the foundation of Hindu Rashtra. India may become Hindu Rashtra, but it cant survive as a Hindu State.
Show threadNSure ✔Nov 19, 2019

@salm456 @nawedbelagam @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @AmitRamesan
@ranjona

Somebody pls tell me 3 - ok 2, alright, 1 benefit of being a hindu rashtra. Are we that fucking big, to go it alone in a world where we'd be jokers with our cows & cloud & radar, with a rapidly regressing economy???

Why does the bjpee want to inflict this humiliation on itself and us???

Show threadMannyNov 19, 2019

@NSure @salm456 @nawedbelagam @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Why the BJP is donig this? Because we are a nation of superstitious morons and we fall for it. Do you remember this when the entire nation, including Tamil Nadu fell for 'Ganesha Drinking Milk' Miracle?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-38301718/the-milk-miracle-that-brought-india-to-a-standstill

The ‘milk miracle’ that brought India to a standstill

In September 1995, millions of Hindus were gripped by an apparent "miracle" when the god Ganesha seemed to be drinking milk.

Show threadnawedbelagamNov 19, 2019
@cprogrammer @NSure @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan @ranjona Very true. We don't understand the basics of religion and depend on clergy to tell us what is what and that leads to superstition. It is prevalent among Muslims too.
Show threadNSure ✔Nov 19, 2019

@nawedbelagam @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan @ranjona

True, Nawedbhai... ultimately, religion has ended up dividing man, dividing land, dividing minds... There is a Malayalam film song - KJ Yesudas won his first National Award for it, if I remember - which says,

"Man created Religions. Religions created Gods and Devils. Religion"s, Gods and Devils together divided the land. Shared human minds..."

Show threadRanjonaNov 19, 2019
@NSure @nawedbelagam @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan
Interesting as this discussion is, I don't think history and facts are going to make a difference to rightwing politics. Religion is always open to question because it's based on belief. We need to stress and fight for the importance of democracy where our differences don't matter. Otherwise, there's no hope.
Show threadNSure ✔Nov 19, 2019

@ranjona @nawedbelagam @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan

Unfortunately so... these khaki shorts THRIVE in an environment of superstition, blind belief and ignorance to science & fact!

Why else is a minister talking about the hump of the Indian cow producing gold?????

Why else are stupid folk rubbing themselves with cow dung, in the hope that they will live longer and healthier????

Show threadNSure ✔Nov 19, 2019

@ranjona @nawedbelagam @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan

Or, for that matter, marrying a pair of frogs, so that the monsoon is good???

Show threadVivekNov 19, 2019

@ranjona @NSure @nawedbelagam @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan

EXACTLY !!!

Show threadnawedbelagamNov 19, 2019
@ranjona @NSure @cprogrammer @salm456 @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan
This has to start at family level. When family heads are full of hatred and superstitious too then we as people have to take this responsibility.
Show threadNSure ✔Nov 19, 2019

@cprogrammer @salm456 @nawedbelagam @tariquesani @KayKap @VivekT @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @AmitRamesan @ranjona

Yes, I remember it like it was yesterday!! It originated in Maharashtra and spread like wildfire across the country!

I even remember that China managed to export a few million Ganeshas to India, coz people were only too happy to feed Ganesha milk!!

What a joke that was!!

Show threadVivekNov 18, 2019
@salm456 I am surprised why any of the intellectuals have not pointed out that "Hindu Rashtra" is an Oxymoron. A religion which believes that superiority or inferiority depends on the accident of birth can never unite its practitioners ultimately. Divide, subdivide and rule is its Mantra.
@tariquesani @KayKap @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona
Show threadKirtiNov 18, 2019
@VivekT Thing is that Hinduism isn't truly a religion; it was initially a philosophy of sorts, a guide to a more spiritual journey (or so I was taught); and it was self-doable, meaning intermediaries were not required. That angered so-called middle fellas/is and they coined rites and rituals to reach God. And thence began the classes, the dos/don'ts; 2day notion of a Hindu Rashtra..
@salm456 @tariquesani @DesCoutinho @rkhuria @tempearth @cprogrammer @Deepsealioness @AmitRamesan @ranjona