Mastodawn

Drew DeVault Aug 27, 2019

It should be fairly obvious by now that every project which has been forked over some perceived social injustice has quickly failed, being born and dying in irrelevance. Maybe if the spent some of the energy they spend harassing free software maintainers on perfecting the craft themselves, their forks would go somewhere

puffball: trianglemancer

@sir I think that this conflates the success of a fork to the technical skill of the people forking it which isn't usually true. Half the reason why forks die is because other people don't contribute, partially because FLOSS has a tendency to be hostile towards minorities, (which is usually the reason the fork exists to begin with lol)

If we can raise awareness and empathy for marginalized groups within FLOSS, forks will be made less often, and be more successful when they do pop up.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@sir but I think the issue here is that you don't want forks to exist in the first place?

I think it's on you to figure out why you see the injustice as percieved instead of actual if someone is taking time out of their day to fork a project. It's very real to them!

Drew DeVault Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl I would agree many times, but in this case I think that the forkers are working in bad faith. I don't think it's "very real to them". I think it's virtue signaling harassment.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@sir I think that shows a lack of empathy for their cause though.
If you're not in the community, to write off whole groups of people as doing nothing more than virtue signaling gives you an opportunity to dismiss their argument, and ignore points that have merit, which helps further divide the FLOSS community.
I feel like you see this as an us versus them argument, but I feel like that kind of thinking is the subtext that contributes to the hostility.

Drew DeVault Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl you seem to express a strange and one-sided empathy. I don't really want to discuss it further.

as the _cr0_tabs Aug 30, 2019

@sir @wgahnagl from an anthropological perspective, the use of the term "virtue signaling" in order to virtue signal to a different audience is really interesting. Especially because it's typically a more explicit example of virtue signaling then whatever they are originally whining about.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 30, 2019

@_cr0_tab @sir oh fuck it's meta-meta discourse hours, drop some knowledge cr0_tab

as the _cr0_tabs Aug 30, 2019

@wgahnagl @sir you kids ready to drop some

blobcatsunglasses

Heavy META

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl @sir The FLOSS community isn't hostile towards minorities, but it's very much focused on merit. If you yell loudly and often, but don't really bring any code to the table, people are more dismissive of your calls for action. Don't forget that most FLOSS software is also made for gratis by other people. Demanding they change the things they worked for in their spare time because you feel like it's something you deserve isn't "empathy for marginalized groups". That's just harassment.

As for the Glimpse fork of GIMP it's important to note that, in reality, the word "gimp" isn't offensive to the vast majority of the world. To demand a change that's relatively costly to most users, and to do so using harassment tactics[1], seems like a very strange thing to me if you're arguing for compassion and empathy.

[1]: I'm not saying you use harassment tactics, but the group demanding the rename on GitLab was.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil but right, look at the first part of your argument. You mention minorities, and bring merit as almost an argument against them, by putting them at odds with each other. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's these very very small actions that build up to contribute to a hostile environment.
When you hear arguments about minorities in FLOSS constantly at odds with "merit", eventually you believe that the community doesn't aknowledge your skill, which is hostile. +

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl I mean, if you're going out of your way to look for "hostility", you'll find plenty of it. If instead you try to go to a project to contribute, and actually bring something of merit, nobody will care about what you look like, who you want to have sex with or any of those things.

Minorities are only at odds when they don't want to bring any merit, but just want to complain and demand changes.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil but the argument I'm making is that it's not always about the code itself, it's about the people you interact with while working on it. If those people express views that other you, or name their software something that others you, you feel that your contributions are valued less.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl But it is about the code itself. That's why there's a fork, that is supposed to "solve" the problem. The GitHub repository still contains over 5000 references to the word "gimp", though, so it doesn't seem like it's actually that big of a deal, even to them.

I haven't yet found any software that I was unable to use due to the authors "othering" me or having a name that offends me. This is largely because I don't really go out of my way to feel like a victim all the time. If there was a piece of software that I could "fix" in my eyes by changing a name, then that's what I would do. I wouldn't go to their bugtracker, start a massive shitshow and call people names until they do it for me.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil and specifically in the case of "gimp" being nonoffensive to most of the world, why do you value "most of the world" more than you value the few? Does it make a difference how many people are hurt when you know that people are hurting?
I think it really is an issue of empathy, and seeing the people on the other side of the argument as nothing more than people the other side of the argument. +

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil if you don't have people around you who will help you understand marginalized viewpoints, that's not a bad thing, but it's on you to look at yourself and think about the ways you might've pushed away their perspective, or silenced their voice.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl No, it's not "on me" to go out of my way to find things to be upset about that doesn't really affect anyone when looking at a reasonable scale.

There's bigger issues in the world that need much more attention that I'd prefer people would focus there efforts on, instead of trying to cater to the feelings of an abysmally small group of very toxic people.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil but this is it, you know? I'm trying to describe to you you what I see as the disconnect between us, and help us fix it.
I feel that no matter what I write I can't convince you to value my argument if you don't take a step to see my perspective.
From here I feel that you've turned me into just "someone on the other side of the argument", which means we can't really communicate well.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil like, I see your perspective as one that is valuable because you're part of the FLOSS community which I love. If I can help you understand why these problems affect me, I want to.
But I feel like a part of the conversation revolves around how you don't care about my perspective, and so to have any constructve conversation we need to start there.

Also maybe take it to DM because this thread is hella long we're both wild lmao

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl It's not that I don't care about your perspective, it's that there's no sane discussion to be had with people that go out of their way to look for offense all the time, when there's actual issues in the world that do affect people in negative ways. People get killed over issues all over the world all the time. 4 people having their feelings hurt because they can't understand that "GIMP" is not someone calling them "a gimp" and actively harming them is a such a non-issue.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil dawg, you just said you value my perspective and then said that there's no sane discussion to be had with people who share my perspective
Like we straight up cannot understand each other like this

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl I value your perspective, but not the result you seem to arrive at. If your idea is that everything is offensive in one way or another and therefore everything needs to change to be as emotionless as possible, then I do think there's no discussion to be had, no. I've tried this many a time, and it always devolves to being called a nazi, or people otherwise trying to defame my character instead of bringing actual arguments. This happened earlier this week, even.

I do admit I can't understand you, for I cannot understand why you'd go out of your way to find offense when there is none. I can't understand why you'd go around telling people they're offensive instead of fixing actual issues yourself. Why is it so important that a handful of people (at best) have their feelings hurt, yet millions are starving. There are places where rape is a common, lawful act to engage in. There are *actual* issues to spend your limited time on. The people that complain the loudest on social "justice" issues are one of the most privileged (as they call it) in the world.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil I got you there lmao, that makes perfect sense and I agree!
But when having conversations like this, I feel like your stance leans towards "well if we care about this one small thing, what's stopping us from caring about EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE?" which is super overwhelming and kind of self defeating, and I have a hunch that it's because people have been hostile when explaining to you why you should care (read: called you a nazi). So you see me as someone who's going to do the same thing.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl >So you see me as someone who's going to do the same thing.

I never said that, I just said that your points still make no sense whatsoever when you look at it from any reasonable scale.

Being offended isn't a right that makes everyone have to cater to you. Offence is something you take, and it's up to you to fix the problem, not the rest of the world. However, these "minority" groups as you call them demand others to fix their problems for them, and harass others over it at every possibility. I don't think that's something to be proud of, let alone something to be supported. Especially given that there's so much more wrong already.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil of course you didn't say it, but that's the subtext I'm reading. In one reply you were worried that I'm trying to "make you look bad", you were worried that working on FLOSS projects will "get you called a nazi", and I feel like you're putting on the defense to protect against my inevitable hot take of "gotcha, you're racist"

before I engage with like any of this stuff I just want to figure out what your perception of me is so that we can actually continue lmao

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl

>I feel like you're putting on the defense to protect against my inevitable hot take of "gotcha, you're racist"

I mean, that's the common tactic with those "progressive" people that see offence everywhere, hence I don't think they're a particularly good group to take hints from. The words "racist", "nazi" and "white supremacist" have lost all meaning due to their tactics.

I'm not particularly worried, you can call me whatever, as I'm a proponent of free speech. Clearly, you don't think this is a positive, as you want to remove words where a group of obnoxious people claim it to be "offensive" for the sole purpose of fitting into their favourite victim narrative.

So far, I've not seen a single well-reasoned argument as to why GIMP is supposedly the big evil we're supposed to fight collectively.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil
but you totally do care!
Words hurt you too, like when strangers show up to call you a nazi!
To say you aren't affected by it is to say that you don't have feelings at all, which is just untrue, and a disservice to yourself!
You have feelings, and so do I, and I think it's a net positive if we both can be happy.

I'm not even debating GIMP anymore, I want to get to the real issue here of our communication disconnect.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl I don't say I'm not affected by it, I tell you I don't worry about it because I support your right to call me whatever you want. Allowing people to call me nazi is a clear indicator to me that those people are trash, and not to be taken serious. It's the easiest way to go about it.

Your entire post reeks of trying to put words in my mouth just for the sake of being "right" by your moral standards. If you want to fix a communication disconnect, I'd recommend you try and stop to pretend that I'm saying things I haven't said. Instead, try to respond to what I'm actually saying, which is something you've been ignoring for a reasonable number of posts now.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil right this is like a 5 step plan lmao
I can't get to dealing with your points while still don't understand each other. It'll just waste time for both of us, and we'll get nowhere, but I'm getting to it I promise.

From my end, I was trying to figure out if you agree that an emotional argument sometimes has value, because we both have emotions, and deserve to be happy. Are we on the same page there, or does that still not work as an argument for you.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl Sure. But emotion should never outweigh reason, which seems to be the big difference in our opinions. I don't think just because one is getting emotional about something silly, he now has a valid argument to demand changes from others (as is what happens pretty much all the time with these people favouring social "justice").

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 27, 2019

@tyil ok cool lmao

so the next step is to figure out what you define as reason, and where the line is drawn between that and emotion.

Because personal bias is always involved in defining logic, so how do you determine that your beliefs are objective and ethical.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl There's this thing people call "proof", or "evidence". They use it in order to show that what they say has some grounds in reality. In this particular case, one would have to provide some of this "proof" that the term GIMP is indeed an actual problem for a number of people. Additionally, they should be able to somehow prove that the supposed benefits (changing the name) outweighs the supposed negatives (loss of a brand, loss of literally all 3rd party documentation, additional financial cost for hosting, whatever). Lastly, if they want to clearly convey it is a real problem, they should be willing to provide *their* effort into solving the problem.

Emotion, on the other hand, is oftentimes done through the absence of any half-decent evidence. They'll try to attack the person instead of the arguments (mostly because the "offended" people have none). They'll refuse to put in any effort, for they secretly understand that it's just wasted effort.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl Are you just trying to make me look bad for not agreeing with you? That's a relatively sad step to take. There is a disconnect, but me feeling sad for people that have too much time on their hands, but no interest in fixing the actual problem is not something I feel should be "fixed". This catering to feelings all the time is a very bad turn for society, where people now have to fear for their social lives whenever they want to make a joke. References that have been known for decades will now get you vilified on the Internet. Your life's work will get you called a nazi. How is this ever a good thing?

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 27, 2019

@wgahnagl Because when few rule the many, you will end up with tyranny.

Besides that, I don't know of any people that are actually "hurt" because of the name of a piece of software in this instance. I know people who identify as gimp (the sexual variant), but nobody that honestly believes the name is causing them harm. I also have yet to see any proper evidence that this is the case for anyone else. I've seen no studies, no polls, nothing of value. Just a bunch of people angrily shouting on the Internet. And for every one of them shouting, there's other people shouting back that they identify as "gimp" and don't see any offense whatsoever.

Alexander Bantyev Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @tyil
It's very hard to find a name for a project that wouldn't be offensive at least somewhere in the world.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @wgahnagl With the way things are going, I'd argue it's literally impossible to find a word that's not offensive, never has been offensive and never will be offensive. The goalposts keep changing on what is offensive all the time, and lately, the definition just seems to widen.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil I think you're seeing these projects as 100% eternal but names can and do change pretty frequently lmao
Even in a post apocalyptic world where every word has become offensive, people can still make up words and rename projects.
I think your argument stems from a fear of being inclusive to everyone all the time which is frustrating when you don't understand the perspective of people who work towards inclusiveness.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft I never said names don't change. Again, you're putting words in my mouth for the sake of pretending to have an argument.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft There's nothing to understand about people who make up problems by ignoring context all the time. The "fear" of being inclusive to everyone would only be that thus far in history, all this "progressive" bullshit has only led to more "progressive" bullshit. No issues have been solved as of yet. History shows these people to be dishonest about everything. You shouldn't cater to such people all the time, if at all, if your intent is to make the world a friendlier place.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil how would you make the world a friendlier place then?

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl By not going out of my way to harass innocent people. Don't hold actions taken over 20 years ago to the standards of today, as things aren't really comparable. If you want to be friendlier, then, you know, be friendly. I saw no friendliness from the Glimpse people on the GitLab issue thread whatsoever. They claim one thing in their Twitter bios, then do the exact opposite when presented with a situation.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil Aight but how do you determine who is and is not innocent

Alexander Bantyev Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @tyil To make the world a friendlier place we need to learn to not take offence that was not intended. Learn to forgive. Learn to focus attention on real problems (like bugs in the code or aggressive nationalist groups) instead of fighting the shadow of our psychological problems.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil all of these are very fair points! But I do think that unintended hurt still hurts! Even if offense wasn't intentional, it still has an impact on the person that it impacted, and the community that reinforces that hurting someone unintentionally is OK.
That's how spaces become hostile to minorities. It's never an open discussion of bigotry, it's ten thousand tiny punches that break bones.

Alexander Bantyev Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @tyil That's fair, but a community that attempts to not hurt anyone is doomed to spend all the time on fixing issues with unintentional offence. People can be unintentionally offended by everything including variable names (master/slave thing for example). I'm sorry that it hurts someone, but I don't mean to hurt them, I'm just writing code. If they really want to get rid of these things, I invite them to find a better alternative, use sed and create a PR

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @wgahnagl It is impossible to "not be offensive", as offence is taken, not given. Anyone can *feel* offended for any or no reason (the latter being the more common, these days). If everything in the world offends you, maybe the problem isn't other people.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil but that's it! I think we're really close to the same page! You can have a community that strives not to offend anybody, and the only step you have to take is to respond with kindness when someone brings something up.
This whole thread is because of a fork of GIMP, which essentially is a renaming PR that never got merged. The devs didn't respect the stance of the people renaming it, forcing them to fork. +

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective.
Asking someone to use inclusive language comes from a basis of kindness, even if their tactics are abrasive, and if you both agree that your goal is to make space for everyone, work towards a solution with them.
That's all you need to do. +

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil You might not understand right now just how meaningful it is for marginalized groups to feel heard, but I can tell you that to have someone respond to my efforts of kindness with kindness makes me feel valued in the space, and gives me hope that my small actions can start mending the world.

Just engaging in good faith with discussion regarding inclusivity does so much more than you can imagine.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft The problem is that there's no semblance of good faith coming from the supposed "offended" people. If you come to my project and demand changes, then call me nazi when I say no because your demanded change is a lot of effort with no payoff, you shouldn't be surprised I'll tell you to fuck yourself in the next comment.

You're acting as if there was no wrongdoing whatsoever on the part of the complaining people, when that's the big problem here. It's as if you intentionally ignore the problems of the people you support, in order to have a case against the people you don't support. There is no kindness coming from the Glimpse camp in any communication towards the GIMP camp.

I also don't intend to make space for everyone. I don't intend to make space for people that want to see me killed, or hurt in other ways, for no reason other than me having the "wrong" opinion to them. Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil @balsoft dawg, it is ridiculously hard to talk to you.
You've called me a twat like five times, and I've been doing everything I can to keep my tone as reasonable as possible. I would like to try and help you, but you seem intent on letting me know that you just don't see me as a person, and won't try.
It's a waste of both of our time to keep this up if you can't afford me the decency of not insulting me at every other reply.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft What? I've never called you a twat. And from my point of view, you haven't been that reasonable by ignoring most of my posts, and pretending like there's only a problem with people that oppose social "justice".

How about you stop trying to pretend I'm saying things I haven't said, and instead just try to focus on the things I have said?

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil @balsoft >while being a disrespectful twat

If you see me as a part of this group, by calling "these people" names, you call me names. I'm just getting tired of it, dude.
There's no reason for it.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft I mean, you're still insisting I'm saying things I'm not saying at all. I've never once implied I don't see "the other side" as not being people, it's something you assume for some reason or another. Whatever you were planning to make work, you won't make it work by half-reading what I say, making false assumptions out of it and then pretend I'm being a bad person because of it.

In case you need clarification, the part you quoted was included in a larger thing, and you seem to be trying to ignore context, something I've been hammering on as being an incredibly important aspect to any social situation. The full sentence is "Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat", and I stand by that. If you're being disrespectful, you shouldn't assume people will treat you with any respect either. If you consider yourself part of the group that demands respect but isn't respectful towards others, that's not my problem. Trying to make it my problem feels disingenuous to me.

You yourself said "if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective". Can you extend this to all conversations, including this? Don't assume I'm saying things out of "bad faith", because I'm not. If I were acting in bad faith, I would've probably just left a snarky remark and never respond to your comments.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil @balsoft idk dawg, I spent like all of yesterday trying to figure out your perspective and where ours differ but despite it, you still seem really worked up.
You're upset that I'm not engaging with a lot of your replies, which is frustrating, but I know that if I do, it won't be worth it while you believe that me and people like me are irredeemable. Making any argument will get shot down instantly because of how you argue. +

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 28, 2019

@tyil I think that my statement about how you "don't see people as people" could be better stated by saying that you don't see them as people you have any responsibility towards.
I get this from your stance that they're fakers, they exist as a mob, enjoy being victims, and are just generally assholes.
You see them only as the actions that are visible to you, and not the reasoning and thought behind them.
I think that from that I can't create any common ground.

Problematic Conference Attendee Aug 28, 2019

@wgahnagl @balsoft If you want to be heard as a "marginalized group", you may want to try to extend some kindness towards the people you want to do things for you.

Additionally, maybe you should stop trying to make everything into identity politics. How about we all consider each other "human", instead of poisoning the well with garbage like "marginalized groups". The only reason to use such terminology is in order to divide people, which inevitably is used to turn them on each other.

Alexander Bantyev Aug 30, 2019

@wgahnagl @tyil The actual goal is creating good software, thank you very much. I have nothing against "marginalized groups" (indeed I think the wording is wrong) and if some folks provide me with a good alternative to a thing that hurts them I'll accept it. Authors of GIMP didn't like the new name, it's in their full right as GIMP is pretty much a brand at this point, and renaming it would ruin the popularity and thus quality.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 30, 2019

@balsoft but dawg, how do you deal with the thought that some ridiculously skilled people aren't contributing to your project because you've pushed them away through direct and indirect action?
How can you know your software is "good" if you don't think about the needs of the people using it?
Who is "good" software supposed to include?

Alexander Bantyev Aug 30, 2019

@wgahnagl @tyil
I'm not talking about the fork, I'm talking about a merge request thread that followed. The people were extremely toxic there.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 30, 2019

@balsoft yeah, like 200000 replies down the line I figured out that I often value intent in an argument more than the argument itself, and this is a case of it

I'm not going to defend shitty behavior, but the thread is something I see as just bad arguing. To me their intent is to make space for everyone, so I agree with the motive. I can also say that I also the thread is an example of arguing the point badly, but I still agree with the sentiment.

puffball: trianglemancer Aug 30, 2019

@balsoft and I can't agree with your argument, because though it might not be true, I see your motivation as trying to convince me to care less about minority voices, which is something I can't do, because that would be to ask me to care less about myself and the people I love.