Drew DeVaultAug 27, 2019
It should be fairly obvious by now that every project which has been forked over some perceived social injustice has quickly failed, being born and dying in irrelevance. Maybe if the spent some of the energy they spend harassing free software maintainers on perfecting the craft themselves, their forks would go somewhere
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@sir I think that this conflates the success of a fork to the technical skill of the people forking it which isn't usually true. Half the reason why forks die is because other people don't contribute, partially because FLOSS has a tendency to be hostile towards minorities, (which is usually the reason the fork exists to begin with lol)

If we can raise awareness and empathy for marginalized groups within FLOSS, forks will be made less often, and be more successful when they do pop up.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl @sir The FLOSS community isn't hostile towards minorities, but it's very much focused on merit. If you yell loudly and often, but don't really bring any code to the table, people are more dismissive of your calls for action. Don't forget that most FLOSS software is also made for gratis by other people. Demanding they change the things they worked for in their spare time because you feel like it's something you deserve isn't "empathy for marginalized groups". That's just harassment.

As for the Glimpse fork of GIMP it's important to note that, in reality, the word "gimp" isn't offensive to the vast majority of the world. To demand a change that's relatively costly to most users, and to do so using harassment tactics[1], seems like a very strange thing to me if you're arguing for compassion and empathy.

[1]: I'm not saying you use harassment tactics, but the group demanding the rename on GitLab was.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil but right, look at the first part of your argument. You mention minorities, and bring merit as almost an argument against them, by putting them at odds with each other. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's these very very small actions that build up to contribute to a hostile environment.
When you hear arguments about minorities in FLOSS constantly at odds with "merit", eventually you believe that the community doesn't aknowledge your skill, which is hostile. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil and specifically in the case of "gimp" being nonoffensive to most of the world, why do you value "most of the world" more than you value the few? Does it make a difference how many people are hurt when you know that people are hurting?
I think it really is an issue of empathy, and seeing the people on the other side of the argument as nothing more than people the other side of the argument. +
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil
It's very hard to find a name for a project that wouldn't be offensive at least somewhere in the world.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil I think you're seeing these projects as 100% eternal but names can and do change pretty frequently lmao
Even in a post apocalyptic world where every word has become offensive, people can still make up words and rename projects.
I think your argument stems from a fear of being inclusive to everyone all the time which is frustrating when you don't understand the perspective of people who work towards inclusiveness.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft There's nothing to understand about people who make up problems by ignoring context all the time. The "fear" of being inclusive to everyone would only be that thus far in history, all this "progressive" bullshit has only led to more "progressive" bullshit. No issues have been solved as of yet. History shows these people to be dishonest about everything. You shouldn't cater to such people all the time, if at all, if your intent is to make the world a friendlier place.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancer
@tyil how would you make the world a friendlier place then?
Aug 28, 2019 at 6:10amWeb
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl By not going out of my way to harass innocent people. Don't hold actions taken over 20 years ago to the standards of today, as things aren't really comparable. If you want to be friendlier, then, you know, be friendly. I saw no friendliness from the Glimpse people on the GitLab issue thread whatsoever. They claim one thing in their Twitter bios, then do the exact opposite when presented with a situation.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil Aight but how do you determine who is and is not innocent
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil To make the world a friendlier place we need to learn to not take offence that was not intended. Learn to forgive. Learn to focus attention on real problems (like bugs in the code or aggressive nationalist groups) instead of fighting the shadow of our psychological problems.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil all of these are very fair points! But I do think that unintended hurt still hurts! Even if offense wasn't intentional, it still has an impact on the person that it impacted, and the community that reinforces that hurting someone unintentionally is OK.
That's how spaces become hostile to minorities. It's never an open discussion of bigotry, it's ten thousand tiny punches that break bones.
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil That's fair, but a community that attempts to not hurt anyone is doomed to spend all the time on fixing issues with unintentional offence. People can be unintentionally offended by everything including variable names (master/slave thing for example). I'm sorry that it hurts someone, but I don't mean to hurt them, I'm just writing code. If they really want to get rid of these things, I invite them to find a better alternative, use sed and create a PR
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @wgahnagl It is impossible to "not be offensive", as offence is taken, not given. Anyone can *feel* offended for any or no reason (the latter being the more common, these days). If everything in the world offends you, maybe the problem isn't other people.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil but that's it! I think we're really close to the same page! You can have a community that strives not to offend anybody, and the only step you have to take is to respond with kindness when someone brings something up.
This whole thread is because of a fork of GIMP, which essentially is a renaming PR that never got merged. The devs didn't respect the stance of the people renaming it, forcing them to fork. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective.
Asking someone to use inclusive language comes from a basis of kindness, even if their tactics are abrasive, and if you both agree that your goal is to make space for everyone, work towards a solution with them.
That's all you need to do. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@balsoft @tyil You might not understand right now just how meaningful it is for marginalized groups to feel heard, but I can tell you that to have someone respond to my efforts of kindness with kindness makes me feel valued in the space, and gives me hope that my small actions can start mending the world.

Just engaging in good faith with discussion regarding inclusivity does so much more than you can imagine.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft The problem is that there's no semblance of good faith coming from the supposed "offended" people. If you come to my project and demand changes, then call me nazi when I say no because your demanded change is a lot of effort with no payoff, you shouldn't be surprised I'll tell you to fuck yourself in the next comment.

You're acting as if there was no wrongdoing whatsoever on the part of the complaining people, when that's the big problem here. It's as if you intentionally ignore the problems of the people you support, in order to have a case against the people you don't support. There is no kindness coming from the Glimpse camp in any communication towards the GIMP camp.

I also don't intend to make space for everyone. I don't intend to make space for people that want to see me killed, or hurt in other ways, for no reason other than me having the "wrong" opinion to them. Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil @balsoft dawg, it is ridiculously hard to talk to you.
You've called me a twat like five times, and I've been doing everything I can to keep my tone as reasonable as possible. I would like to try and help you, but you seem intent on letting me know that you just don't see me as a person, and won't try.
It's a waste of both of our time to keep this up if you can't afford me the decency of not insulting me at every other reply.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft What? I've never called you a twat. And from my point of view, you haven't been that reasonable by ignoring most of my posts, and pretending like there's only a problem with people that oppose social "justice".

How about you stop trying to pretend I'm saying things I haven't said, and instead just try to focus on the things I have said?
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil @balsoft >while being a disrespectful twat

If you see me as a part of this group, by calling "these people" names, you call me names. I'm just getting tired of it, dude.
There's no reason for it.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft I mean, you're still insisting I'm saying things I'm not saying at all. I've never once implied I don't see "the other side" as not being people, it's something you assume for some reason or another. Whatever you were planning to make work, you won't make it work by half-reading what I say, making false assumptions out of it and then pretend I'm being a bad person because of it.

In case you need clarification, the part you quoted was included in a larger thing, and you seem to be trying to ignore context, something I've been hammering on as being an incredibly important aspect to any social situation. The full sentence is "Respect needs to go both ways, you can't demand respect while being a disrespectful twat", and I stand by that. If you're being disrespectful, you shouldn't assume people will treat you with any respect either. If you consider yourself part of the group that demands respect but isn't respectful towards others, that's not my problem. Trying to make it my problem feels disingenuous to me.

You yourself said "if someone comes to you with an issue in your code, respond to their concern with a good faith effort to understand their perspective". Can you extend this to all conversations, including this? Don't assume I'm saying things out of "bad faith", because I'm not. If I were acting in bad faith, I would've probably just left a snarky remark and never respond to your comments.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil @balsoft idk dawg, I spent like all of yesterday trying to figure out your perspective and where ours differ but despite it, you still seem really worked up.
You're upset that I'm not engaging with a lot of your replies, which is frustrating, but I know that if I do, it won't be worth it while you believe that me and people like me are irredeemable. Making any argument will get shot down instantly because of how you argue. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil I think that my statement about how you "don't see people as people" could be better stated by saying that you don't see them as people you have any responsibility towards.
I get this from your stance that they're fakers, they exist as a mob, enjoy being victims, and are just generally assholes.
You see them only as the actions that are visible to you, and not the reasoning and thought behind them.
I think that from that I can't create any common ground.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl

> You see them only as the actions that are visible to you, and not the reasoning and thought behind them.

Well, yes, the behaviour (thus their actions) of people is what defines them. Not whatever made up group they ascribe to. Not what color they are. Not what they're attracted to. It's their behaviour. I guess it's a very different way of thinking, as you seem to try to think in they way groups are, whereas I try to think in they way people do.

While reasoning is important, as it establishes context, it is not a free pass to behave in a certain way. For instance, if you believe women are oppressed in western countries, that on itself is fine. Talking about it is fine. Calling people nazi for not believing you is less than fine. Calling for violence against people that don't believe you isn't fine. Not even if you yourself are a woman that is (according to you) oppressed.

Looking at the comment section on the GitLab issue at the GIMP repository, I see some incredibly nasty things hurled at "the opposition". That kind of behaviour is why I come to the conclusion that clearly, they don't really believe in "hospitality" or "kindness" as much as they pretend to. They don't show any respect to the GIMP developers, yet you say they ought to be respected nonetheless. I don't agree with that. If they want to be treated with respect, they should earn it by treating others with respect.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil !!!!!! Omg this is it! This is the issue!!
I operate on the assumption that intent is at times more important than what is actually said!
Since I assume that everyone is working in good faith, even if I'm being screamed at, I try to parse their intent first, and if that intent is "be more kind" I do my best to listen.
If you don't value intent, and only the words that are said, then it's just ridiculously hard to figure out why anyone would support them! +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil I think this is like the fundamental level of misunderstanding we have. I think that I still have a responsibility to be kind to people who are unkind to me, because I default to arguments always being in good faith, and you default to them being in bad faith.
To see someone solely based on only their words and not their motivation is 100% why we Do Not understand each other.
Words have meaning, but for me that's not the most important thing to read.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl > I default to arguments always being in good faith, and you default to them being in bad faith.

See, again you're purposefully misreading what I write. I don't know how you can say you assume good faith and still pull stuff like this.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil ok then I don't think I understand you. With your argument a few replies back you said that you believe that the mob of SJWs go around harassing people for fun. I'm reading that as an argument that they act in bad faith because their goal is not to help people, but to hurt their enemies. Am I not reading that right?
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl You may read that as an act of bad faith, I just see it as a shitty behaviour that we can clearly see from them. Why do you need to make assumptions all the time? It seems like it's just trying to make a shortcut to put someone in a little box, which in this case seems to be a box you can then look down upon as being "bad".


Why not ask for clarification, if you truly are trying to assume good faith?

Seeing the behaviour of these people, I can only infer that "kindness" is not very high on their priorities. People that boast about fighting for one thing, but then do the opposite aren't particularly trustworthy people in my opinion. Why should I then bend over backwards to pretend they're only saying kind words to me? I'm not going to pretend their bad actions aren't happening. I call them out on that stuff, which seems to upset you for some reason. Should people not be held accountable for their actions?
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil I didn't ask for clarification bc I thought I understood you lmoa
I'm glad I just did because we're closer to figuring it out.

What you just described WAS describing a bad faith argument. They argue that they seek kindness but are actually lying about their motives, which are only to harass people.
That can invalidate an entire position, and I understand now why you don't respect it.

With holding people accountable for what they say, my approach isn't +

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft If you want to be heard as a "marginalized group", you may want to try to extend some kindness towards the people you want to do things for you.

Additionally, maybe you should stop trying to make everything into identity politics. How about we all consider each other "human", instead of poisoning the well with garbage like "marginalized groups". The only reason to use such terminology is in order to divide people, which inevitably is used to turn them on each other.
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 30, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil The actual goal is creating good software, thank you very much. I have nothing against "marginalized groups" (indeed I think the wording is wrong) and if some folks provide me with a good alternative to a thing that hurts them I'll accept it. Authors of GIMP didn't like the new name, it's in their full right as GIMP is pretty much a brand at this point, and renaming it would ruin the popularity and thus quality.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 30, 2019
@balsoft but dawg, how do you deal with the thought that some ridiculously skilled people aren't contributing to your project because you've pushed them away through direct and indirect action?
How can you know your software is "good" if you don't think about the needs of the people using it?
Who is "good" software supposed to include?
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 30, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil
I'm not talking about the fork, I'm talking about a merge request thread that followed. The people were extremely toxic there.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 30, 2019

@balsoft yeah, like 200000 replies down the line I figured out that I often value intent in an argument more than the argument itself, and this is a case of it

I'm not going to defend shitty behavior, but the thread is something I see as just bad arguing. To me their intent is to make space for everyone, so I agree with the motive. I can also say that I also the thread is an example of arguing the point badly, but I still agree with the sentiment.

Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 30, 2019
@balsoft and I can't agree with your argument, because though it might not be true, I see your motivation as trying to convince me to care less about minority voices, which is something I can't do, because that would be to ask me to care less about myself and the people I love.