Drew DeVaultAug 27, 2019
It should be fairly obvious by now that every project which has been forked over some perceived social injustice has quickly failed, being born and dying in irrelevance. Maybe if the spent some of the energy they spend harassing free software maintainers on perfecting the craft themselves, their forks would go somewhere
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@sir I think that this conflates the success of a fork to the technical skill of the people forking it which isn't usually true. Half the reason why forks die is because other people don't contribute, partially because FLOSS has a tendency to be hostile towards minorities, (which is usually the reason the fork exists to begin with lol)

If we can raise awareness and empathy for marginalized groups within FLOSS, forks will be made less often, and be more successful when they do pop up.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl @sir The FLOSS community isn't hostile towards minorities, but it's very much focused on merit. If you yell loudly and often, but don't really bring any code to the table, people are more dismissive of your calls for action. Don't forget that most FLOSS software is also made for gratis by other people. Demanding they change the things they worked for in their spare time because you feel like it's something you deserve isn't "empathy for marginalized groups". That's just harassment.

As for the Glimpse fork of GIMP it's important to note that, in reality, the word "gimp" isn't offensive to the vast majority of the world. To demand a change that's relatively costly to most users, and to do so using harassment tactics[1], seems like a very strange thing to me if you're arguing for compassion and empathy.

[1]: I'm not saying you use harassment tactics, but the group demanding the rename on GitLab was.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil but right, look at the first part of your argument. You mention minorities, and bring merit as almost an argument against them, by putting them at odds with each other. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's these very very small actions that build up to contribute to a hostile environment.
When you hear arguments about minorities in FLOSS constantly at odds with "merit", eventually you believe that the community doesn't aknowledge your skill, which is hostile. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil and specifically in the case of "gimp" being nonoffensive to most of the world, why do you value "most of the world" more than you value the few? Does it make a difference how many people are hurt when you know that people are hurting?
I think it really is an issue of empathy, and seeing the people on the other side of the argument as nothing more than people the other side of the argument. +
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil
It's very hard to find a name for a project that wouldn't be offensive at least somewhere in the world.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil I think you're seeing these projects as 100% eternal but names can and do change pretty frequently lmao
Even in a post apocalyptic world where every word has become offensive, people can still make up words and rename projects.
I think your argument stems from a fear of being inclusive to everyone all the time which is frustrating when you don't understand the perspective of people who work towards inclusiveness.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @balsoft There's nothing to understand about people who make up problems by ignoring context all the time. The "fear" of being inclusive to everyone would only be that thus far in history, all this "progressive" bullshit has only led to more "progressive" bullshit. No issues have been solved as of yet. History shows these people to be dishonest about everything. You shouldn't cater to such people all the time, if at all, if your intent is to make the world a friendlier place.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil how would you make the world a friendlier place then?
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil To make the world a friendlier place we need to learn to not take offence that was not intended. Learn to forgive. Learn to focus attention on real problems (like bugs in the code or aggressive nationalist groups) instead of fighting the shadow of our psychological problems.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil all of these are very fair points! But I do think that unintended hurt still hurts! Even if offense wasn't intentional, it still has an impact on the person that it impacted, and the community that reinforces that hurting someone unintentionally is OK.
That's how spaces become hostile to minorities. It's never an open discussion of bigotry, it's ten thousand tiny punches that break bones.
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil That's fair, but a community that attempts to not hurt anyone is doomed to spend all the time on fixing issues with unintentional offence. People can be unintentionally offended by everything including variable names (master/slave thing for example). I'm sorry that it hurts someone, but I don't mean to hurt them, I'm just writing code. If they really want to get rid of these things, I invite them to find a better alternative, use sed and create a PR
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@balsoft @tyil but that's it! I think we're really close to the same page! You can have a community that strives not to offend anybody, and the only step you have to take is to respond with kindness when someone brings something up.
This whole thread is because of a fork of GIMP, which essentially is a renaming PR that never got merged. The devs didn't respect the stance of the people renaming it, forcing them to fork. +
Show threadAlexander BantyevAug 30, 2019
@wgahnagl @tyil
I'm not talking about the fork, I'm talking about a merge request thread that followed. The people were extremely toxic there.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 30, 2019

@balsoft yeah, like 200000 replies down the line I figured out that I often value intent in an argument more than the argument itself, and this is a case of it

I'm not going to defend shitty behavior, but the thread is something I see as just bad arguing. To me their intent is to make space for everyone, so I agree with the motive. I can also say that I also the thread is an example of arguing the point badly, but I still agree with the sentiment.

Show threadpuffball: trianglemancer
@balsoft and I can't agree with your argument, because though it might not be true, I see your motivation as trying to convince me to care less about minority voices, which is something I can't do, because that would be to ask me to care less about myself and the people I love.
Aug 30, 2019 at 3:25pmWeb