Fascinating dynamic unfolding across Mastodon: instances are dividing into two ideological factions: safe speech, and free speech.
The safe speech instances are likely to start sharing domain-level blocklists (like Adblock but for speech) in the near future, to "curb harassment".
The free speech instances legitimately don't seem to care, and so far, have held much more interesting, substantive and intellectual conversations than the safe speech zones.
What can you expect from me? Free speech.
@mattskala That's a good point, though there's a lot more to it than that.
The fediverse has been around sine Laconica (10-ish years), and it's only recently that there's a clash between the safe-space culture from the US, meeting the existing global free-speech culture, in the context of a foreign culture now dominating in user size.
Essentially, this is the new Wild West right now.
@wogan free/safe speech unfortunately maps pretty well onto the existing "culture war" division of English-language Twitter. I think what you're* seeing simply comes from the existing Twitter user base and its issues being imported.
*not me - I'm one of the invaders myself, only joined here a couple days ago.
@mattskala Oh it's definitely coming from Twitter
One common thread so far is that people are not used to not being able to globally mute/silence people they don't like, and feel like they still need protection from the internet itself.
@mattskala Well, so far, I've been silenced from a furry instance, and have only had to issue 1 block against an individual myself.
The greater problem is that the hysteria-driven news media still exists, and this federation itself is pretty public. You could probably still get into decent trouble for shenangians here, but at least control over the flow of data is decentralized.
@mattskala Yeah you can bet it'll go viral with something like "Eugen's hot new messaging app lets people share child porn with no ability to block it".
They'll get their pound of flesh, unfortunately, and as always. To be honest, I'm not overly sad about the fact that mainstream media is suffering a screeching death.
@wogan @mattskala @yahananxie I'm kind of glad that I'm not the only one who sees the US cultural influence in what's essentially a culture war over speech norms.
Something the Americans fail to realize is that much of the European segment already has hate speech laws that apply where our servers are operating and don't actually need the Americans to come tell us what we're allowed to say.
@frankiesaxx @mattskala @yahananxie Europe is actually quite ahead on a lot of this stuff, but I think you'll find some solid disagreement on the way certain types of speech are handled.
For example, the mass immigration from the middle east. It's becoming political (and social) suicide to say anything bad (even if it's true) about immigrants.
@wogan @mattskala @yahananxie That's not actually true.
It's (sometimes) political/social suicide to indulge in xenophobic scapegoating. (Or should be, in an ideal world. If you look at Hungary & Poland, the UK, etc. clearly it's not.)
Sane conversations about issues with immigration that aren't based in hyperbolic nationalist fear-mongering are pretty common; we just aren't all as hysterically terrified of foreign-talking brown people as the US wants us to be.
@jd @wogan @mattskala @yahananxie
Hungary has a lot of problems right now. :(
@wogan @jd @mattskala @yahananxie
One thing US media saturation has made me aware of is the tendency to treat America's racial issues as universal, but that's not really the case.
The American cultural history of commercialized race-based slavery & segregation and its lasting social impact isn't universal; allowing the US racial narrative to define the problems in our own countries hinders our ability to accurately identify & deal with our real issues.
@frankiesaxx @jd @mattskala @yahananxie Well, as far as the US is concerned, they're basically the only country in the world so...
(I'm stereotyping of course)
@wogan @jd @mattskala @yahananxie
Haha. Yes. But it's not a completely inaccurate stereotype.
I would guess cultural and social issues around race in South Africa might identify more closely with some of the American issues because of a similar (not identical) history apartheid / segregation. But again, there are substantive differences too. As a continent, Africa has its own complex history of interrelationships too.
@frankiesaxx @wogan @mattskala @yahananxie As a yank immigrated elsewhere, it always fascinates me how people adopt the US Civil Rights narrative for themselves and their own struggles. there and many negatives and positives to this, but it would be better if people focus on their own histories first, I think.
and then they also simplify the US Civ Rts history too much, another issue.
@mattskala @yahananxie @wogan @frankiesaxx The other reason is probably that Canada cops don't kill as many black people. There is BLM in the UK, but they are focused on different issues of racism and have different tactics - including attempting to shut down Heathrow Airport, which is probably beyond conception in the USA.
@mattskala @yahananxie @jd @wogan @frankiesaxx -
In Denmark we were together with Holland the avant-garde of blaming Muslims. The lesson here is that there is no alternative to free speech. If people are allowed to say what they think it creates a debate, if not it will just grow into something strange and hideous.
Beneath all the anger are things that has nothing to do with foreigners, but with inequality, angst & lack of solidarity
@yahananxie @wogan @frankiesaxx Now, that's only one major hotel chain, and I think most Japanese consider it kind of weird. But they are able to remain in business while doing this. Nobody's being run out of town on a rail over it. And there's a nont-really-fringe ultranationalist political faction that supports that sort of thing.
Lolicon notwithstanding, US and Japanese culture have a lot of things in common.
@mattskala @yahananxie @frankiesaxx Shhhh Matt, don't be controversial
The whole "use marketing to correct history" thing is well under way here in South Africa, but I think we're learning that from the US
@frankiesaxx Yes, ethnocentrism is a thing.
So is the freeze peach fallacy (believing “free speech” means freedom from consequences, freedom to make people listen to you, freedom to say anything in any place, ...).
Unfortunately, it seems most of that is a front for “we want to be able to engage in the same abusive behaviours as on Reddit or birbsite”...
@kellerfuchs I've noticed those tack-on freedoms often include freedom from criticism and contradiction.
I can't say I've had any exchanges here where people have been less than conversationally civil with me, even though I'm pretty sure in some cases our politics and social ideas are very different.
There's a level of get what you give too; my affinity may be more in some camps than others, but I'd be a liar if I said 'my side' never started the poo flinging.
If there ever was a good use case for the domain "wall.io", this would be it.
@jb55 My money's on the politicization of speech itself.
Politics operates on feelings, always has. I imagine that there are big, global cycles in which the entrenched political class eventually imposes their values via education, creating this sort of narrow culture.
Today we know it as safe-spaces, but history is full of examples of those in power imposing their narrow world-views on the young and impressionable.
@wogan I'd like to see deets or refs to who's what and specific instances of the debate.
Links?
@dredmorbius But to give you an example: https://wogan.im/@wogan/23379
I've already been silenced apparently by association, since I'm not transphobic and would not deliberately boost content that is.
That ban was made along safe-space lines, following the fallout of the recent pawoo/loli incident, which has started dividing instance administrators.
That, plus, the very "safe" leanings of the Mastodon flagship has had an impact here too.
Still working on getting data though!
@dredmorbius Yeah I've tried messaging the admin of that vulpine.club instance to request more information, but they are of course not obliged to answer it.
I would only expect intra-instance moderation to have an appeal process - like users being banned, or people appealing domain-blocks issued in haste.
Inter-instance? Better strap on your cowboy boots
@wogan Free speech here... safe spaces are unprodcutive for progress. But if you are a dick or doing illegal things I won't think twice about a ban hammer.
To quote the great philosopher and poet Optimus Prime:
Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings.
I think it's necessary to challenge and push the boundaries sometimes, and so long as it's for the sake of advancing our collective understanding of a topic, I'm usually in favor of it.
I, personally, draw the line at "classic" trolling - posting empty words solely to get an emotional overreaction.
@wogan It's very weird to hear “allowing harrasment and discrimination” described as “free speech”.
Free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences, doesn't mean you are entitled to say anything anywhere anywhen, and doesn't mean others are forced to listen to you.
(Also, when the only thing you have to say about your discourse is that it's not illegal for you to have it, well...)
@wogan Oh, I guess I must have misunderstood you then.
What did you have in mind re: “safe speech” vs. “free speech” ?
@kellerfuchs Priorities.
Safe speech = The priority is to make sure everyone feels included, welcome, and safe, and that they can share things about themselves without facing criticism or ridicule.
Free speech = With few limitations, every topic is on the table. Ideas (not people) can and should be interrogated, picked apart, and thoroughly understood, even if the process makes some people feel uncomfortable.
Broadly, that.
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