Fascinating dynamic unfolding across Mastodon: instances are dividing into two ideological factions: safe speech, and free speech.
The safe speech instances are likely to start sharing domain-level blocklists (like Adblock but for speech) in the near future, to "curb harassment".
The free speech instances legitimately don't seem to care, and so far, have held much more interesting, substantive and intellectual conversations than the safe speech zones.
What can you expect from me? Free speech.
@mattskala That's a good point, though there's a lot more to it than that.
The fediverse has been around sine Laconica (10-ish years), and it's only recently that there's a clash between the safe-space culture from the US, meeting the existing global free-speech culture, in the context of a foreign culture now dominating in user size.
Essentially, this is the new Wild West right now.
@wogan @mattskala @yahananxie I'm kind of glad that I'm not the only one who sees the US cultural influence in what's essentially a culture war over speech norms.
Something the Americans fail to realize is that much of the European segment already has hate speech laws that apply where our servers are operating and don't actually need the Americans to come tell us what we're allowed to say.
@frankiesaxx @mattskala @yahananxie Europe is actually quite ahead on a lot of this stuff, but I think you'll find some solid disagreement on the way certain types of speech are handled.
For example, the mass immigration from the middle east. It's becoming political (and social) suicide to say anything bad (even if it's true) about immigrants.
@wogan @mattskala @yahananxie That's not actually true.
It's (sometimes) political/social suicide to indulge in xenophobic scapegoating. (Or should be, in an ideal world. If you look at Hungary & Poland, the UK, etc. clearly it's not.)
Sane conversations about issues with immigration that aren't based in hyperbolic nationalist fear-mongering are pretty common; we just aren't all as hysterically terrified of foreign-talking brown people as the US wants us to be.
@jd @wogan @mattskala @yahananxie
Hungary has a lot of problems right now. :(
@wogan @jd @mattskala @yahananxie
One thing US media saturation has made me aware of is the tendency to treat America's racial issues as universal, but that's not really the case.
The American cultural history of commercialized race-based slavery & segregation and its lasting social impact isn't universal; allowing the US racial narrative to define the problems in our own countries hinders our ability to accurately identify & deal with our real issues.
@frankiesaxx @jd @mattskala @yahananxie Well, as far as the US is concerned, they're basically the only country in the world so...
(I'm stereotyping of course)
@wogan @jd @mattskala @yahananxie
Haha. Yes. But it's not a completely inaccurate stereotype.
I would guess cultural and social issues around race in South Africa might identify more closely with some of the American issues because of a similar (not identical) history apartheid / segregation. But again, there are substantive differences too. As a continent, Africa has its own complex history of interrelationships too.
@frankiesaxx @wogan @mattskala @yahananxie As a yank immigrated elsewhere, it always fascinates me how people adopt the US Civil Rights narrative for themselves and their own struggles. there and many negatives and positives to this, but it would be better if people focus on their own histories first, I think.
and then they also simplify the US Civ Rts history too much, another issue.
@mattskala @yahananxie @wogan @frankiesaxx The other reason is probably that Canada cops don't kill as many black people. There is BLM in the UK, but they are focused on different issues of racism and have different tactics - including attempting to shut down Heathrow Airport, which is probably beyond conception in the USA.
@mattskala @yahananxie @jd @wogan @frankiesaxx -
In Denmark we were together with Holland the avant-garde of blaming Muslims. The lesson here is that there is no alternative to free speech. If people are allowed to say what they think it creates a debate, if not it will just grow into something strange and hideous.
Beneath all the anger are things that has nothing to do with foreigners, but with inequality, angst & lack of solidarity
@yahananxie @wogan @frankiesaxx Now, that's only one major hotel chain, and I think most Japanese consider it kind of weird. But they are able to remain in business while doing this. Nobody's being run out of town on a rail over it. And there's a nont-really-fringe ultranationalist political faction that supports that sort of thing.
Lolicon notwithstanding, US and Japanese culture have a lot of things in common.
@mattskala @yahananxie @frankiesaxx Shhhh Matt, don't be controversial
The whole "use marketing to correct history" thing is well under way here in South Africa, but I think we're learning that from the US
@frankiesaxx Yes, ethnocentrism is a thing.
So is the freeze peach fallacy (believing “free speech” means freedom from consequences, freedom to make people listen to you, freedom to say anything in any place, ...).
Unfortunately, it seems most of that is a front for “we want to be able to engage in the same abusive behaviours as on Reddit or birbsite”...
@kellerfuchs I've noticed those tack-on freedoms often include freedom from criticism and contradiction.
I can't say I've had any exchanges here where people have been less than conversationally civil with me, even though I'm pretty sure in some cases our politics and social ideas are very different.
There's a level of get what you give too; my affinity may be more in some camps than others, but I'd be a liar if I said 'my side' never started the poo flinging.
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