EconprophA question for my open ed peeps. In a piece I'm thinking about writing about current politics & higher ed, I want to talk about Taylorism (Frederick Taylor) & it's relationship to higher ed. Anybody w/ bus. school bkgrnd should know Taylorism but I'm curious as to whether it means anything to others w/ non-business higher ed backgrounds? @katebowles @Mweller @dkernohan @actualham @mahabali @davecormier @bonstewart
dkernohan@econproph @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart yep. And the Taylor/Skinner link is interesting. Discourses of optimisation are a 50s thing, like social security and really good jazz.
@dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart funny you say 50's, cuz my little 7 yr involvement in college strategic planning, accreditation, & governance convinced me that all higher ed mgt is stuck in a 50's-60's world. They think Taylor is the ONLY way to organize. Totally missed everything learned in bus strategy & org theory of last 50 yrs -esp last 15.
Tanya **moved**@econproph @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart
Yes! This explains why when I wandered around saying things like, "Not all business ideas are bad" and "Some of them could actually help us be better" it didn't usually end well. I've learned to stop doing that...
@Tdorey @katebowles @mahabali @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart DON'T EVER CONTEMPLATE STOPPING DOING THAT. There are some great ideas from business that could work in education. But not all of them.
@dkernohan @Tdorey @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart @kenbauer THANKS ALL. I agree there's a LOT of good ideas from bus/org studies. Unfortunately, it seems the most successful stuff isn't read/seen by hi ed types. For ex: holacracy, truly flat orgs, non-hierarchy collaboratives, etc really work, but Hi ed seems to want to copy GM circa 1975 structurally, behaviorally, conceptually.
Maha Bali مها بالي@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart well and if we wanted a simple connection, isn't higher ed a kind of "social business" (I don't know if those are successful business models and i am sure there are more models than I know).
I think there are problems when higherEd is viewed as a private rather than a social/public good. And this influences internal organization as well. R u thinking Taylorism as univ administration?
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Univ admins are part of the Taylorism (instigators of it?), but it's more than that. Taylorism took Weber's bureacracy & measured, standardized, defined, and dehumanized it. It also enabled (along w/ law chg on corps) the large corporate org form we take for granted, whether it's for-profit, non-profit, or ngo.
@Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart I see Taylorist thinking behind "designing instruction" and "assessment of defined outcomes". The construction of silo-ed hierarchy & silo-ed curriculum is pure Taylor.
What frustrates me, is learned real quality & process improvement circa 1980 from Deming/Ouchi. Deming showed this Taylor stuff doesn't work. Now many orgs are showing alts, but hi ed doesn't see them
What frustrates me, is learned real quality & process improvement circa 1980 from Deming/Ouchi. Deming showed this Taylor stuff doesn't work. Now many orgs are showing alts, but hi ed doesn't see them
Fredrik Graver 🎥🥌@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart It's been a long time since I read any Taylor... Seems like the origins of the "new public management" stuff that's so prevalent (and destructive).
@fgraver @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart If by "new public mgt" you mean the kind of "govs and schools should be run like businesses", then yes. They're mostly saying "run like industrial corps from the mid-20th cent." Nobody in their right mind actually creating a new bus org does that these days - but the schools & gov still think that's how it's done.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart yes but it is a little confusing to bring in Taylor when there is enough educational and educational curriculum theory and psychology and such already saying this stuff. Education doesn't listen to ITSELF on things like intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation (grades anyone?) and on going beyond technical interest in prediction and control and pretending those numbers are value neutral
@econproph @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart
Until today, I've never looked at any of these theories but they explain why it seems like so much of the most interesting approaches to learning are happening in business (which becomes problematic for other reasons).
Back to the question at the beginning of this great thread - Taylorism as a theory? To me, meaningless, but I'd get a higher-ed example of it & how it would be using different one
@Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart I appreciate the input. I guess now that you put it that way, I don't think of Taylorism so much as theory as being a system or at least a major part of a system. (besides regular econ principles, I teach/study Comparative Economic Systems). Maybe it's more of a worldview/belief thing that conditions how managers and "leaders" organize & coordinate folks that have to work together.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart isn't the main approach of Taylorism that people are only extrinsically motivated by punishment/reward and not motivated by the work itself and good social relationships? Or is it a lot deeper than that? (learned this in high school, remember, so maybe it's more than what I was told). For me, the interest in measurement/control is better described as neoliberalism than Taylorism
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart The extrinsic reward stuff is part of Taylorism (and core to orthodox/neo-classical econ) but there's more that comes with it. Taylorism aims to take homogenize/genericize all the workers. The work tasks/processes to be designed FOR the workers by "engineers & mgrs" who are "smarter". Variation in workers or how they do something is bad - workers are to be interchangeable. /1
@Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Quality is seen as to be achieved by standardization of everything and measured by inspection of output/outcomes. Therefore hierarchy of authority is necessary to control and make sure everybody does the work and does it precisely the way the engineers said it must be done.
Irony is that Deming in 50's-70's showed via Japan & later US, that none of this works or makes sense. /2
Irony is that Deming in 50's-70's showed via Japan & later US, that none of this works or makes sense. /2
Dave Cormier@econproph @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @Mweller @bonstewart Huh. i miss a discussion on Taylorism while writing this blog post on project management and education... spooky http://davecormier.com/edblog/2016/11/30/stealing-project-management-language-for-change-in-education/
@davecormier @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @Mweller @bonstewart This is speaking my lanugage! I've got simple plan docs (mostly in Excel) to support this kind of approach if you are interested...
Lesson learned: "Project plan" is a term loaded with all kinds of baggage... Folks on my end have been universally more receptive to the development of "Project Roadmaps" (which are really the same thing ;))
@davecormier @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @kenbauer @Mweller @bonstewart great minds (and mine too) run in the vein? path? gutter?
Kate@davecormier @econproph @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @actualham @kenbauer @Mweller @bonstewart Am just settling in to read this, but I wanted to share that today my partner is in a corporate #highered team building meeting based heavily on DISC profiling of staff.
This is such an instance of bad ed history. DISC profiling comes from Marston, who invented Wonder Woman and the lie detector test. It's a 1928 philosophy of emotions and normalcy. WTF, higher ed?
@Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart So I find myself wondering how Marston and later Taylorism interact.
But also, this forum discussion on Marston's FBI file is very funny: https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1162308313
@katebowles @davecormier @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @actualham @kenbauer @Mweller @bonstewart DISC? Oh GAWD! get them a copy of "End of Average" stat. Seriously.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart note to self: look up DISC. But i assume it is some standardized biased thing that stereotypes people and makes policy makers feel objective and scientific while doing it? Just guessing
@mahabali @econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart DISC: Dominant Influencer Steady or Compliant. Mix these things and you get variants. Eventually you get assigned a personality type. I did the test, and I'm a model of steadiness.
It's astrology, really. Its origins came in at the end of Taylorism, an effort to fathom the mystery of human variability. It charges on unchecked, thanks to the consultancy dollar.
@katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Aha, like enneagrams, numerology, tarot, palmistry... Good to know. I've heard people talking about it like it's a useful thing.
@katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart I probably shouldn't be so dismissive, but a few years ago someone convinced us to spend a lot of time and money on an enneagram consultant. For most people it was a harmless diversion, but some actually were quite upset.
@katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart shoot that is awful and worse than i was expecting. Aren't we all a little bit of all of those things? (probably less compliant in general but probably more compliant than we *think* we are)
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Yes it is. And it manages to do that stereotyping by totally abusing & violating all the mathematical assumptions necessary before using the kinds of measures (mean, average, variance, "Norm") it claims make it "scientific". Astrology & Palmistry.
Ken Bauer@mahabali @econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart And this relates to my (and so many others) experiments in 2017 with #AbolishGrading.
I took away the points (mostly, I need to write this up more) and it changed the dynamics. Some embraced it, some just plain freaked out but so far it looks like the feedback from students is positive. #ChatSpace #SNoOO
I took away the points (mostly, I need to write this up more) and it changed the dynamics. Some embraced it, some just plain freaked out but so far it looks like the feedback from students is positive. #ChatSpace #SNoOO
@kenbauer @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart i heard u say that recently! Was it in ur FlipCon keynote?
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart imho lots of theories across disciplines influence each other (quantum physics and postmodernism for example!) so if you are addressing an edu audience, they may get you easier if u reference their jargon (i say this knowing ur an economist and it isn't YOUR jargon; and "they" r policy makers and God knows what discipline THEY understand)
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart In my experience though, hi ed leaders don't know the edu research you talk about either! In 6 yrs of attending HLC conf (largest accrediting body in US - all schools in 19 states), attended by pres, trustees, provosts, deans, etc. I never heard the word learning except as modifier for the activity assessment. Never heard pedagogy.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart yeah. It is sthg i was talking about (can't remember which thread w which peeps anymore). They become obsessed with measuring the THING and providing indirect evidence of the THING without any care for how the actual THING happens (learning) and more crucially, how focusing on measuring it modifies it in destructive ways and messes up priorities of teachers/learners/middle-mgmt-admind who know better
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart That obsession with measurement really has taken hold everywhere, hasn't it? We see it here every time new results from PISA and TIMS tests are released.
I notice it leading an education where we /don't/ measure. Our ss. get pass/fail at the end of 3 yrs. based on their ability to reflect on their own artistic progress.
That confuses bureaucrats.
Laura Ritchie 🌸@fgraver @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart I love that, Fredrik - 'reflecting on artistic progress' We have lots of reflections - on performance, personal development, and process- as assessments w/in music degree in our music degrees & also in ruberics every performance has to be translated into 'word equivalent' so others can understand
@lauraritchie @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart We find reflections are key to experiential pedagogy, which is a foundation of our programmes.
Studying the end result is less useful than examining how the artistic intent was translated to artistic process and then seeing if the method and process chosen where appropriate for achieving the original intent. (very short version)
@fgraver @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart I have a similar method for evaluating research practice. I don't look at the outcome -- I look at what was intended, and what was designed, and why, and then invite reflection on what could be done better next time.
@katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart What discipline is that? I'm convinced the method we use can be applied to more traditional academic disciplines too, but people tend to want to stick with their tried-and-true methods of assessment.
@fgraver @katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart I need to bookmark this thread to come back to it.
I teach undergraduate computer science (Intro progrramming in Python/C++, software engineering, computer security and more) and have shifted my assessment methodology.
Argg, I need to find time to write all this stuff up, I'm so bad at that. #ChatSpace #SNoOO
I teach undergraduate computer science (Intro progrramming in Python/C++, software engineering, computer security and more) and have shifted my assessment methodology.
Argg, I need to find time to write all this stuff up, I'm so bad at that. #ChatSpace #SNoOO
@kenbauer @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart @fgraver makes so much sense for comp sci, right? I used to hate assignments where we all created programs that did the same thing only with different variable names and interfaces. Totally cheatable,too.
If i dont have time to blog, u could jot down notes to come back to later or record audio. U still owe me (why? So entitled!) a VC OpenEd post
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart @fgraver Yes, I owe you blog posts and I owe myself a bunch.
Currently reviewing my students blog posts of course reviews. Wow. Loving my students so much now which is great since tomorrow morning I give a motivational talk to secondary school admins/teachers here in Monterrey (and apparently some grad students in edu) about passion in learning. #TOOT #ChatSpace #SNoOO
@fgraver @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart i also focus on assessing process not product of learning. Because u can help ur students create a great product and they leave and cannot do anything on their own; or u nurture the process instead because that is what they transfer and it should help them with multiple other goals beyond class
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart Exactly! The key is that the students need to constantly gain a deeper understanding of how and why the choices they made in the process led to the end result they produced. That understanding is what can lead them to make (even) more informed choices next time and come closer to achieving their own intentions.
@fgraver @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Ironically, your approach - if combined with empowering everybody in the process to say "stop a minute, there's something wrong/something to improve - let's do it" - is what Deming did with decades ago when creating real "Quality Improvement Processes". The measurement craze is all wrong.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart
Example of what is wrong with universities? My univ has Vice Presidents for admin stuff like finance,IT, marketing. Our provost has Vice/Associate provosts for research and collaborations. We have no highly ranked official who is responsible for teaching/learning. Do any univs have one? (haven't searched. Will now)
Example of what is wrong with universities? My univ has Vice Presidents for admin stuff like finance,IT, marketing. Our provost has Vice/Associate provosts for research and collaborations. We have no highly ranked official who is responsible for teaching/learning. Do any univs have one? (haven't searched. Will now)
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Yep, that's the problem. Don't even need those VP's. Too many layers. Too many siloes. That's GM circa 1975
Terry Greene@mahabali our Teaching and Learning team reports directly to the Vice President Academic (Fleming College)
@mahabali @econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Australian unis all have a Deputy VC or similar for teaching and learning.
Robert TalbertWe've got a "Vice Provost for Instructional Development and Innovation", who is also our teaching/learning center director https://www.gvsu.edu/chem/christine-rener-120.htm
@RobertTalbert yeah, I am not at all seeing my handle in those replies. Weird. Mastodon is a little buggy that way
I work with Christine closely since I'm the chair of the advisory council for our teaching/learning center. She is awesome -- but TBH I don't know what kind of influence she has as a Vice Provost that she didn't/doesn't have as the FTLC director. She started off as faculty, then FTLC director, then was elevated to Vice Provost.