EconprophA question for my open ed peeps. In a piece I'm thinking about writing about current politics & higher ed, I want to talk about Taylorism (Frederick Taylor) & it's relationship to higher ed. Anybody w/ bus. school bkgrnd should know Taylorism but I'm curious as to whether it means anything to others w/ non-business higher ed backgrounds? @katebowles @Mweller @dkernohan @actualham @mahabali @davecormier @bonstewart
dkernohan@econproph @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart yep. And the Taylor/Skinner link is interesting. Discourses of optimisation are a 50s thing, like social security and really good jazz.
@dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart funny you say 50's, cuz my little 7 yr involvement in college strategic planning, accreditation, & governance convinced me that all higher ed mgt is stuck in a 50's-60's world. They think Taylor is the ONLY way to organize. Totally missed everything learned in bus strategy & org theory of last 50 yrs -esp last 15.
Tanya **moved**@econproph @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart
Yes! This explains why when I wandered around saying things like, "Not all business ideas are bad" and "Some of them could actually help us be better" it didn't usually end well. I've learned to stop doing that...
@Tdorey @katebowles @mahabali @econproph @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart DON'T EVER CONTEMPLATE STOPPING DOING THAT. There are some great ideas from business that could work in education. But not all of them.
@dkernohan @Tdorey @katebowles @mahabali @actualham @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart @kenbauer THANKS ALL. I agree there's a LOT of good ideas from bus/org studies. Unfortunately, it seems the most successful stuff isn't read/seen by hi ed types. For ex: holacracy, truly flat orgs, non-hierarchy collaboratives, etc really work, but Hi ed seems to want to copy GM circa 1975 structurally, behaviorally, conceptually.
Maha Bali مها بالي@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart well and if we wanted a simple connection, isn't higher ed a kind of "social business" (I don't know if those are successful business models and i am sure there are more models than I know).
I think there are problems when higherEd is viewed as a private rather than a social/public good. And this influences internal organization as well. R u thinking Taylorism as univ administration?
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart Univ admins are part of the Taylorism (instigators of it?), but it's more than that. Taylorism took Weber's bureacracy & measured, standardized, defined, and dehumanized it. It also enabled (along w/ law chg on corps) the large corporate org form we take for granted, whether it's for-profit, non-profit, or ngo.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart imho lots of theories across disciplines influence each other (quantum physics and postmodernism for example!) so if you are addressing an edu audience, they may get you easier if u reference their jargon (i say this knowing ur an economist and it isn't YOUR jargon; and "they" r policy makers and God knows what discipline THEY understand)
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart In my experience though, hi ed leaders don't know the edu research you talk about either! In 6 yrs of attending HLC conf (largest accrediting body in US - all schools in 19 states), attended by pres, trustees, provosts, deans, etc. I never heard the word learning except as modifier for the activity assessment. Never heard pedagogy.
@econproph @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart yeah. It is sthg i was talking about (can't remember which thread w which peeps anymore). They become obsessed with measuring the THING and providing indirect evidence of the THING without any care for how the actual THING happens (learning) and more crucially, how focusing on measuring it modifies it in destructive ways and messes up priorities of teachers/learners/middle-mgmt-admind who know better
Fredrik Graver 🎥🥌@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart That obsession with measurement really has taken hold everywhere, hasn't it? We see it here every time new results from PISA and TIMS tests are released.
I notice it leading an education where we /don't/ measure. Our ss. get pass/fail at the end of 3 yrs. based on their ability to reflect on their own artistic progress.
That confuses bureaucrats.
Laura Ritchie 🌸@fgraver @mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart I love that, Fredrik - 'reflecting on artistic progress' We have lots of reflections - on performance, personal development, and process- as assessments w/in music degree in our music degrees & also in ruberics every performance has to be translated into 'word equivalent' so others can understand
@lauraritchie @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @bonstewart We find reflections are key to experiential pedagogy, which is a foundation of our programmes.
Studying the end result is less useful than examining how the artistic intent was translated to artistic process and then seeing if the method and process chosen where appropriate for achieving the original intent. (very short version)
Kate@fgraver @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart I have a similar method for evaluating research practice. I don't look at the outcome -- I look at what was intended, and what was designed, and why, and then invite reflection on what could be done better next time.
@katebowles @Tdorey @dkernohan @mahabali @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart What discipline is that? I'm convinced the method we use can be applied to more traditional academic disciplines too, but people tend to want to stick with their tried-and-true methods of assessment.
@fgraver @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart i also focus on assessing process not product of learning. Because u can help ur students create a great product and they leave and cannot do anything on their own; or u nurture the process instead because that is what they transfer and it should help them with multiple other goals beyond class
@mahabali @Tdorey @dkernohan @katebowles @econproph @actualham @kenbauer @davecormier @Mweller @lauraritchie @bonstewart Exactly! The key is that the students need to constantly gain a deeper understanding of how and why the choices they made in the process led to the end result they produced. That understanding is what can lead them to make (even) more informed choices next time and come closer to achieving their own intentions.