Mastodawn

good news everyone! there is now a feature-complete foss clone of a popular microsoft tool, with no ads or telemetry

[one day later]

okay so it turns out that tool was made by a eugenicist mormon extremist. don't worry, there's a fork now with all the slurs removed

[two weeks pass]

the maintainers of the slursfree fork have accepted $10M in vc funding and they're putting telemetry back in. here's a list of half-finished unmaintained "alternatives" that don't actually do the same thing

mu Feb 27, 2025

it sucks that by-and-large the only people with the necessary combination of motivation and free time to create and maintain "privacy respecting" software are well-off white libertarian weirdos

FoolishOwl 1d ago

@muon FOSS seems like a good idea, but it was imagined to be self-sustaining in isolation from broader social movements, and it was also imagined it could subdue corporations with its clever licenses.

@foolishowl well put

@muon @foolishowl This conversation has made me think.

A libertarian who establishes a FOSS project, but acts like a dick, is a person who sees a problem and wants to help, but lacks the social tooling and mental framework to fully navigate the problem. While they're socially a mess, they are actively trying to provide us with a critical service.

From one relavant perspective, you should't punish good behavior. Putting in time and effort to help us unlock ourselves from megacorperations is good behavior. The slurs and eugenics aren't, but the other efforts are. Given the lack of effective alternatives, they're also clearly one of the few people who are able to actually provide this required service.

So, here's where I'm landing: Is there a way to move forward with this where we benefit from and acknowledge the efforts of these libertarians while also getting them the social support and education that they clearly need? A way to acknowledge that the FOSS work is evidence that they are indeed trying, even if they are way off the mark by several measures?

Because if my understanding of the origins of such people reflects reality, these are probably people who got good at technology because they were already disadvantaged when it came to navigating social, and grew up in an environment which encouraged the worst social behaviors.

FoolishOwl 1d ago

@Epic_Null @muon The challenge is to create social structures that are real alternatives to the prevailing oppressive structures, and that persist in opposing oppression. In the absence of that, as Rage Against the Machine put it, "There is no other pill to take, so you take the one that makes you ill."

That's a general problem for all of us. It's why the Fediverse exists.

It's also noteworthy that the Fediverse's strengths and weaknesses are exactly where it succeeds and fails to connect to broader social issues.

Josh (humble with pride)1d ago

@Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl You’re suggesting we offer libertarians help. If they’re true libertarians, they’ll decline. If they’re American libertarians, they’ll expect the help in the form of government bailout.

FoolishOwl 1d ago

@josh @Epic_Null @muon I'm kind of allowing for the 20 year old student who just wants to make cool stuff and hasn't thought very hard about the social context they exist in yet.

@josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

That seems kind of reductive to me.

It might be true in general, but different people are different. Some might still accept help, regardless of whether they or anyone else calls them 'libertarians'.

Josh (humble with pride)1d ago

@aearo @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl Oh it’s totally reductive.

And I’ll wait right here while you come up with some “good libertarians” who reformed their ways.

@josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

Sounds like we're verging on a No True Scotsmen fallacy here, but I'll humbly and tentatively nominate Penn Jillette:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeZL-vsjSoo

Penn Jillette on why his views on libertarianism have changed

YouTube

@aearo @josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

Violet Madder 21h ago

"True" small-L libertarians know damn well what mutual aid is.

But um, getting people to recognize much less fix their social failings in a world that is systematically conditioning everyone to normalize antisocial behaviors and values, with PRECIOUS FEW healthier examples in evidence, that's a tall fuckin order. The tools they need to see and fix the problem, are exactly the tools they don't have and that's what causes the problem. Even people who WANT to improve have a hard time figuring out how.

You can't teach that shit in a quick lecture. It takes participation in healthy groups where a person can experience better patterns, and it takes years.

FOSS is rife with types that want to consider themselves "apolitical" as if there is any such thing, just trying to dodge the whole hairball. Which obviously does not work. And the privilege it takes to have the free time and tech hardware to work on this stuff, slants the whole playing field towards, well, problematic techbroism.

@violetmadder @josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

20h ago

True and fair. I mean, I say again that different people are different, and I figure there have got to be some that are easier to set right than that. I doubt a quick lecture is going to change *anyone's* path unless it's one heck of a lecture, but I do think that introducing the right set of ideas to someone at the right time, if it's something they really haven't encountered before but are open to, can have a pretty big impact all by itself. (Sometimes. And it'll still take some time to sink in, even if they do take it to heart.)

But, yeah, most people - even filtering for people who are already trying - aren't gonna change so easily.

@violetmadder @josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

19h ago

But it's not like "FOSS" is homogenous, either. Any software projects or enthusiast groups or whatever that manage to establish and project healthiness within their community are gonna... well, certainly not hurt, at least? Help, maybe even?

If a better culture can take root *somewhere* within FOSS - and I don't mean to suggest that it hasn't already in places, either - there's potential for it to spread, and potential for it to influence people.

Sure, it's got to actively resist the entropy of that techbroist slant, but hey, life itself is fundamentally one big push back against entropy. Buildings tend to collapse into rubble, and rubble does *not* tend to uncollapse into buildings. If you want buildings, you've gotta build them. You've gotta fight against gravity the whole way. And then you've gotta maintain them, or they'll eventually stop being buildings again.

@violetmadder @josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

19h ago

I guess I also think that, well, a culture is made up of individuals, right? As individuals, it's worth behaving as though we're part of the culture that we want to be part of. So while It's not remotely reasonable in general to expect a single person to take on the project of fixing someone else's heart, or to expect it to be a fix that's at all quick or easy, I do think it is reasonable to, as an individual, try to treat others by default as if they're already headed down that road, and to help them in whatever small way you can.

Like crowd surfing: No single person is going to support the whole weight of the surfer, or even very much of it for very long, but the crowd as a whole still keeps them aloft. You can still help that happen even if you'd never want or reasonably be expected to carry that person around on your own shoulders. But even if you don't *know* if someone is, metaphorically speaking, crowd surfing, I say it's still worth acting as if they were and giving them a little bit of a push upward. Better to try to coordinate around helping than around not helping.

@josh @Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl

Mind you, I'm quite sure neither you nor I are about to go do some exhaustive catalog of everyone who might reasonably be labeled "libertarian" so we can weigh each and every soul against a feather. I don't know who does or doesn't qualify as a "good libertarian" and neither do you. Maybe Penn does, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's the only one. Maybe there are lots of others. Maybe there are lots of others, and he's not one of them for some reason. Whatever. I'm sure there are, at the very least, a *lot* of libertarians who suck, and the video I linked even underscores that point pretty dang well. Maybe it's most of them. Maybe it's almost all of them.

But none of that's really important.

All I'm saying is, I think it's bad to kneejerk-judge specific people as hopeless when the alternative is to at least *try* to help them see a better way. Because different people are different.

Epic Null 1d ago

@aearo @josh @muon @foolishowl I think this is especially true when the person in question is making an effort.

If what the libertarian is saying is "Something is wrong. Here's how I know something is wrong. Let me do something to try to change what is wrong", and they've actually found and diagnosed one of the symptoms of what is wrong...

That seems like someone who might be willing to do more.

I know these are people who still need to be treated as care. They've learned lessons like "Needing help is weakness" and "People will manipulate you to lead you astray" will absolutely sabotage efforts to reach them. They're also will need to navigate SERIOUS cognative hazards such as "IF YOU AREN'T THE TOP YOU WILL BE CRUSHED AND ABANDONED" - a mindset that is drilled into us from early childhood by our competition heavy society.

On the other hand... It's a lot easier to navigate these types of topics with a support system. And you don't get a support system by simply being rejeceted.

So if there's an in here - if the work these people are putting into FOSS projects is work that we can use to cut throgh the hazards, and a sign that they'd be open to making the social leaps if given the right support, it may be worth a shot.

Disclamer: I do not have the skills to pull somethig like this off. While I can point to a few places where we could connect the dots, I'm not great at making connections to people. Most of what I do know is that a lot of people get drawn to computers because they can be reasoned through, even when people can't be. In order for me to see the value in sports, someone actually had to explain the social mechanics involved in coming together to watch a game.

@Epic_Null @josh @muon @foolishowl

100%, yeah. If they're already trying to make the world better, if there's at least *some* kind of an inroad, then it's worth making an effort.

I mean, I don't think there's an *obligation* here. I think plenty of people don't have the time or the resources or the whatever else to help someone like that, and that's just how it goes sometimes.

But if someone can do it, that's a good thing.

If a community can adopt the standard of wanting to help people in that situation, so that multiple people can all help at least a little bit and thereby share the effort, that's an even better thing.

https://humancode.us/2023/02/26/separating-art-from-artist

Dave Rahardja 1d ago

@Epic_Null @muon @foolishowl Sadly, I fear you can’t separate the art from the artist. Trying to extract good stuff by supporting or promoting the works of intolerant people only helps to platform intolerance.

You cannot separate art from artist

Elevating the art endorses the artist. You can’t help doing the latter when you do the former.

humancode.us

Epic Null 1d ago

@drahardja @muon @foolishowl I would agree that seperating the art from the artist is not the right way to go here. And in truth, I don't have any clue how what I'm suggesting would be done.

But I don't think "Seperate the art from the artist" is quite what I'm trying to suggest. I think I'm more trying to suggest "Use the art to reach the artist".

That these individuals are engaging in FOSS in the first place says something about where they are mentally. if they're replacing a tool that Microsoft provides, it means they see something wrong with relying on Microsoft.

The culture they, and myself, come from is very much a "If the person doesn't fit, throw them away" culture. (I'm sure you can see how that ties to eugenics). There's not really the kind of room for growth and change that you would want in a community. And there are a lot of other toxic parts of this culture which are reinforced rather than pushed back against by the people around them.

But if this particular art is a sign that they are beginning to process part of the toxicity, maybe there's a way to renforce that.

JP 22h ago

@foolishowl @muon https://mastodon.social/@jplebreton/111698712650582913 yeah, we need a new movement with different founding principles, by people who aren't afraid to alienate the old coalition. because the new coalition to be built is so much larger, more robust, and directly committed to goals that matter, ie the liberation of humanity rather than the liberation of guys who write makefiles.

MidgePhoto 21h ago

@foolishowl @muon
...and...?

@muon https://humancode.us/2024/09/18/open-source-pastime-for-rich

Dave Rahardja 1d ago

Open Source Software is the Pastime of the Rich

Open Source Software in a world of capitalism can only exist as a pastime for the already-rich. Only companies extracting profit from something else can afford to maintain OSS. Only individuals paid for something else can contribute significant time to OSS projects in their spare time.

humancode.us

NiceMicro 18h ago

@muon the okay thing about it is that unlike the american megacorps making the proprietary software, you have zero obligations towards the awful person who makes the free software. Also, while they might be on a personal level, worse than the people at the proprietary tech oligarchs, they have way less power, and look, they made their work public without restricting even those they hate the most.

Kat the Leopardess 1d ago

@muon Boy howdy, if that doesnt sum up my entire experience....

xeroxed 1d ago

@muon any example of this happened?

NiceMicro 18h ago

@xeroxed If you spend more than a month on free software fedi, you will soon find out that people who contributed zero code to anything ever, will have more vitriol towards small companies and solo free software devs who might have some questionable politics but no power to do anything with that, than the billion dollar american megacorps actively ruining everybody's lives.

chaos |1d ago

@muon What’s the tool?

Consensus Tullyality 1d ago

@shippychaos @muon a rhetorical device