Mastodawn

another take about the proliferation of ai music meaning that people need to "get out and see shows in real life" and these always upset me as an immunocompromised person

you can find non ai music online still. there are still lots of people doing it. try being more mindful about your listening and not listening to the spotify playlists that they fill with slop

support people on bandcamp and mirlo and bandwagon and subvert

check out live streamed music which is still happening for real. i know a place where you can check out hundreds of hours of modular synths

stop separating "real life" from "online" as if they are mutually exclusive, and make people like me feel like shit and like nothing they do counts. Every time i play a show i have to take a risk because nobody masks and they don't clean the air and a lot of my friends can't come and that fucking sucks

Shows are great. But not everyone can make it to shows. Not everyone lives somewhere there are shows. Not everyone is physically able to attend shows. Some people are high risk and have to take a risk every time.

This is a Yes, And situation. Be more mindful about music if you want to hear stuff that people made.

forestine 1d ago

literally all the local musicians i'm friends with are reposting that fucking post and it's making me upset

forestine 1d ago

if you've decided to quit all social media and go participate in "real life", are you taking any time to check on your disabled comrades ever again or are you expecting them to all quit and come out and play outside with you? because otherwise, you're just abandoning them.

forestine 1d ago

i'm tired of being told everything i've been working on for the last six years isn't real because it's online

forestine 1d ago

you're right, i forgot to eat lunch and now i'm getting upset about posts

forestine 1d ago

it's just, this year i've played a show almost every month, *one show* and it's been just about more than i can handle because i am chronically ill. i have to take a risk every time. i need my partner to have the day off and help me or it becomes physically not possible to carry all my stuff and everything. and i am so fucking tired afterwards it takes me so long to recover. this is not going to be something i can do sustainably long term. and that's ONE SHOW in a month. and as an audience member it's also physically difficult for me to make it out to people's shows and i constantly feel guilty about it.

i have over 150 videos of livestreams i've done, online, free. i have more polished music on bandcamp, online. Earth Modular Society's new archive site has like 7000 streams by different people on it. Online.

And people are saying none of that counts and nobody's going to even care what i do unless i go in person and take a physical risk at some venue and it's only real if we're all breathing on each other

forestine 1d ago

also, are we all just going to give up the whole entire internet because of some ai or are we going to fight back in any way?

forestine 1d ago

the "authentic experience" you're having in person does not negate someone else's authentic experience experiencing something in a way that is accessible to them

Hawksquill 1d ago

@forestine this pisses me off so much. I am occasionally involved with planning conferences and people are SO ready to drop virtual and hybrid options like a hot potato. COVID proved that remote options are not only doable but make professional spaces more accessible for disabled people, people with family care responsibilities, people without access to employer funding to attend conferences. Basically anyone who might be unwilling or unable to attend an in-person event for any reason. We got so much positive feedback from people who appreciated having online options, even if it wasn't fully equivalent to the in-person event. You can't attend every single event and session at an in-person conference anyway. A lot of people just appreciated having access to a lower registration rate.

And here we are only a few years later with virtual options getting chopped. It's like everyone was so eager to get back to "real life" after quarantine that they're offended when anyone mentions "going back to virtual." Like going back is negative, a regression. There are so many benefits to virtual: affordability (for both the hosting org and attendees), reduced climate impact, more permanently preserved resources due to the ease of recording digital presentations.

"It's just not the same!" they cry. And maybe it isn't, but does that mean it's worse? Does that mean we should deliberately make our events inaccessible, just because it won't be the same exact experience? Apparently yes.

forestine 1d ago

@hawksquill apparently so! this does feel like a "support local business/music"-coded form of the same crap. and then it's like okay you want me to go to the thing, but you refuse to do anything to make it more possible for me to go to the thing. it's almost like you don't want me to be there...

Hawksquill 1d ago

@forestine yeah I think it's the same sense of moral judgement, like the virtual options are inferior to the "real thing." Like making a value judgment based on something that doesn't determine quality or authenticity at all.

Basically if disabled people need it, everyone needs to grumble about how inconvenient and bad it is. 🤔

WearyBonnie 1d ago

@forestine
Yeessss to this entire thread. I'm having a freaking fantastic time building community on the internet and yes, there are problems and things should be improved but giving up - and telling others to give up - is hardly helpful?? Then there will just be the horrible corporate walled gardens and no one building any alternatives or pushing back 😒

Tiny Gamer Alec 1d ago

Fuck those people. Plenty of musicians make a good career for themselves entirely online and I'm sure you can too!

Tilda Moose, citizen 1d ago

@forestine
Hi, I don't process typical hunger signals myself. Seems I need routine, to avoid mysterious inability to function or feel ok 🤣

forestine 1d ago

@MattMoose i'm having a snack 😆

@forestine i’ve mentioned it before, but i really miss the twitch dj scene that was happening during “lockdown” … it’s not the same, of course, but it’s different in a really cool way, it’s a good experience! and it means nobody’s stinkin’ up the club but me 😹

forestine 1d ago

@brhfl yeah! there are still some going but i get you, the energy is not the same, and they don't have the same amount of hyped audience

Luna Lactea 1d ago

@forestine If you do public service volunteering through the Internet people will say it's fake, you're pretending, & you're not helping. It's annoying.

I volunteer for OpenStreetMap sometimes & people sometimes say that kind of thing when I mention it. "That's not helping & you're wasting time. Everyone uses Google Maps.", but Google Maps is six months out of date, does not list if places are safe for LGBT people or not, & does not have much for accessibility. Also it helps me navigate where commercial maps are unreliable (everywhere) & I think I'm not no one.

@jackemled @forestine this sounds verbatim like an argument i'd have with my mother before i pull up Apple Maps and show her that it's based on OpenStreetMap and several other data sources. It's actually insane how people are so quick to write off any sort of online community or contribution. Especially when it comes to queer communities which can feel so much more real because it's the only place one can truly feel themselves

Luna Lactea 1d ago

@puppygirlhornypost2 @forestine yeah :(
"With Google Maps I can navigate to the Pokemon Go gyms. OpenStreetMap doesn't even have an app!"[1]
ok well Pokemon Go uses OpenStreetMap's dataset. People doing this are why you have that game.

[1]: Completely ignoring the twenty different navigation apps that use OpenStreetMap for tile & path data that show up if you search it on any app store.

forestine 1d ago

@jackemled @puppygirlhornypost2 ooh yeah! i recently discovered i can add seating in Open Street Map which is so neat. i can never find places to sit down when i'm out and about

@jackemled @forestine

Everything in life now, is fake. 🙄

Bel Tamtu | Critter Unit 1d ago

@jackemled @forestine That's so maddening. 🫂

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@forestine the general answer to that is probably "disabled what now?" because holy fuck are the "fuck social media! fuck technology!" people just..... very willing to throw disabled people under the bloody bus

forestine 1d ago

@freya yeah they really are

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@forestine I met a truly delightful one who ouitright said that some depopulation will be required to save the planet, and that if an entity needs technology to survive, maybe they shouldn't which. I. uh. no. fuck off

forestine 1d ago

@freya yeah there is a LOT of casual eugenics going on around so called progressive people

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@forestine poke a primitivist, find a eugenicist underneath. Same dipshits who go "well you, blind girl, find AI helps with accessibility but I don't care, lose your accessibility shit forever because purity". Same dipshits who're like "well everyone should alt text their images!" which, yes, they should, but this isn't a magical future, we are never going to get a culture where *everyone* alt texts their images, doubly so when people can take a photo and post it and put their phone away in under 10 seconds

:EA DATA. SF:1d ago

@freya @forestine

Develop better tools. That's the fix. That's the way. Make things more accessible and safe. That's how we do better. Learn from our mistakes and missteps. And listen to the people you claim you are trying to help. That should be the first thing.

I have a friend who works with a lot of blind people and he was telling me how much they love the Meta "AI" glasses because they let them experience the world in a way that's almost magical. It tells them all about everything it can "see" because they can't. I hate genAI. I hate Meta and Zuckerberg but nobody else created the things. We can learn from that.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@jrdepriest @forestine precisely

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@forestine @freya I cut off 2 longtime former friends because of their casual eugenics BS. Earlier this year. I tried to talk to both of them first. I cut them out because they are too selfish to reflect & do better. Both also started spouting antimasking shit to me 🤬

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine what the fuck?

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine They are no longer worthy of being my friend. No ableism allowed.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine I've got people who think I'm bad for using AI for image descriptions and helping me with code and it's like. I can barely remember 20 lines of code, but I still want to make things. am I supposed to just................get better? is that how that works?

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine I think most people, including me, who are very against AI, believe that AI creators - who exploit people who depend on digital assistance for more online accessibility - can develop code specifically for accessibility usage but have chosen not to do that humanitarian work. They are ableists who have forced people with disabilities into a corner, refused to develop for better accessibility & run fast towards unethical AI opportunities.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine I think some things can only realistically be done with AI. people seem to be like "well we had automatic image descriptions before AI!" and yes, we did, but they were something like this:

"Image may contain: outdoor and text and outdoor and grass"

Not..... not very helpful

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine AI is programmed by humans. Humans can always program better. This is an ableist issue within the developers industry.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine pure classifier-based image descriptions were severely limited and could not make inferences about what's going on, nor could they do things like identify locations, actually describe people, etc.

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine Again, this is a developer failure issue.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine I'd love to see non-LLM-based image describers that can do that, but I don't think they're possible, you need the level of complexity of an LLM to do that

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine You're never going to see that evolvement if AI oligarchs don't want it to happen. They don't want more accessibility for disabled people, in general. They want everyone to believe we all need AI to survive.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine hey I mean all I can say is I can now share photos with other blind folks where I couldn't before. one overnight run of Gemini on all of them, 20.5GB of photos, NZ$40 later, and they all now have descriptions

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine Great. I want accessibility for all disabled folks without them all having to succumb to AI exploiters/abusers. Developers can definitely do much better. Which is why I'm working on workshops here for citizens on accessibility & open source software & why AI dependence is a tool for fascists.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine awawawaw! I agree!

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine Disabled folks deserve better. We will fight for it.

Ra (Freyja) (it/its)𒀭𒈹𒍠𒊩 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @forestine source: I am blind, and use these things, and know how they work

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine Source: I work with blind clients at end of life. I also know how they work.

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@freya @forestine No - it is the developers who need to do better.

forestine 1d ago

@PhoenixSerenity @freya ugh hate that. i've lost respect for a lot of people over the last couple of years in this regard

Ms. Que Banh 1d ago

@forestine @freya SAME!

The Bird 1d ago

@forestine Your thread really sums up how I feel about all of this as an immunocompromised person who is homebound. People being like "I'm participating in real life more" and "I'm not on social media much, it's so good," infuriate me because it's a reminder that they don't value me as a person worthy of attention or care.... if they did they wouldn't demonize my online existence as 'bad' and 'unhealthy,' and they'd try to keep in touch. But they just... don't care.

forestine 1d ago

@Aaidanbird yeah. i feel that. i'm so sorry.

@forestine not to mention anyone with mobility issues, or is too young, or needs to sleep at peak venue times theres a million reasons someone might not be able to do live shows, should we not allow them to enjoy human music?

Bel Tamtu | Critter Unit 1d ago

@forestine I'm not immunocompromised but I also don't like people treating online social interactions and life and communities as less real than offline or in person.

A lot of my social life is spent online. I also volunteer online and now I work online. I have long distance friends and partners I keep up with online, and I have for decades.

Online social interaction also helped me significantly when in person socializing became much too taxing for me to do very often and I stopped self medicating with drugs.

I keep in touch with local friends online too. I did my training for my career online. My online friendships and relationships are real and valuable.

Also, people living in more rural or remote communities benefit greatly from online community, especially if they're queer. Online might be their only option for community, like it is for many of us who are disabled and immunocompromised.

Anyways, I know you know this. I feel you. (Hugging myself: this is for you.)

forestine 1d ago

@Bel_tamtu 💖 yes, great additions. and for example shows are kind of really hot and loud and not accessible for a lot of neurodivergent people. it's actually quite a different experience to listen at home at a preferred volume and setting

Ember is so tired of people.

@forestine it's also really silly to say that something being offline somehow protects it from being slop

forestine 1d ago

@Ember this is true. and a lot of the promo for irl shows is slop, too

@forestine If I could, I would boost this 1,000 times.

ليلى النحلة 1d ago

@forestine what's the synth site?

Scarlet Phoenix Collective 1d ago

@arendleejessurun @forestine Are all of these sites "d.coms?" I know bandcamp and bandwagon are, but I've not heard of mirlo or subvert, so I don't know how to input those into the address bar.-T