Mastodawn

Leendaal Jun 11

@joho because knowledge IS harmful there you have the circle

Adrian Morales Jun 11

@joho Like OnlyFans? Gooning's gonna get a whole lot tougher. 🙃👍

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Jun 11

@joho You need a login to check the weather on the Met Office aviation weather site (or you did when I used it).

I thought this was useful as it gave an audit trail - the crash investigators would know that you *had* checked the weather and would be able to rule out "pilot couldn't be arsed to check the weather" as a cause.

Joaquim Homrighausen Jun 11

@TimWardCam I'm all for authentication and verification, when there's a point, when it adds something, when it actually makes things better.

When it becomes a invasive privacy issue for citizens that are already under surveillance by governments *and* tech giants, it's not quite the same thing.

Rule #1: Politicians should need to understand what they're actually trying to pass laws for, and how that works in reality.
Rule #2: See Rule #1

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Jun 11

@joho I did always try to follow rule #1 when passing laws as an elected politician (councillors don't get to pass much in the way of laws, but planning policies count as they have legal force and real effects on real people).

@joho would like to hear a reason to worry about this that does not imply that one might be a child predator.

@gullok @joho a gay person in Russia.

@Nawer_Rapter @joho how is age related with sexual orientation?

@gullok @joho ...
.........
.........
I think you can imagine what "getting your ID before entering in a computer" implies, well before age related issues.
Besides that, treating children (specially teenagers) like livestock without agency instead of valid persons with valid thoughts and a valid ability to contribute to culture and society feels beyond wrong.
But that's about minor's rights, and by what you said you wouldn't even allow them to vote with some arbitrary "they're stupid" logic.

@Nawer_Rapter @joho I hear you, it does sound like different problems right? Being able to vote or use the internet is not necessarily connected with being underage, but some platforms are illegal for underaged for a reason, and companies providing such services to underage kids are the ones that need to be punished for, interestingly enough, treating them as livestock.

cube Jun 11

@gullok @Nawer_Rapter @joho if you can mandate that a specific type of content needs age verification on the internet,

and at the same time you can force any service on the internet to give you all personal data that they collect (which the US surveillance machine frequently does),

then you can build up databases of "undesirable citizens" or force them to go silent on the internet.

And once those databases exist, they _will_ be used for the worst possible use.

Like IBM in the 1940s.

Catha Jun 11

@qbe they exist.
Or how else can you explain a boy, with his phone in his pocket, has, by boarding a plane, had all alarms going off because "something" detected a file called "bomb" on his phone...
All it was was some music.

They don't need an ID check at all anymore...

cube Jun 11

@Catha doesn't mean that you should make it easier for them.

Catha Jun 11

@qbe that is not what I am saying.
Besides the fact the whole world is reacting too late ..

@gullok @Nawer_Rapter @joho

Juho Mäntysalo Jun 11

They're not asking solely age. Remember that the drive to ask for IDs is led by Meta. They're using this platform partly to divert blame, but also part to increase the accuracy of their profiles. Which everyone has, as Facebook has cookies on vast majority of websites, not just their own.

Second, they're not asking age solely on sites intended for kids, but on places where people would talk of their politics and preferences. Such as, say, gay person in Russia.

@iju @Nawer_Rapter @joho if Meta is behind this, then it is really problematic

@gullok @Nawer_Rapter @joho

Juho Mäntysalo Jun 11

It is. This isn't about pedofiles per se, but that kids are using Meta's services before they're of minimum age (iirc 13...16 depending on location). As Meta's services are repeatedly proven to be bad for mental health by design (as happy people don't spend monies), they can't fix the root cause.

So instead of overhauling their systems to be healthy, they're trying to get everyone to give them their IDs.

It's essentially the same discussion as with tobacco.

@iju @Nawer_Rapter @joho argh, but then, if we imagine that they would revamp their system to be healthy, vulnerables would just migrate to another addictive platform. I would like to see this kind of algorithm effect being forbidden for social media somehow

@gullok @iju @joho Probably the most reliable way and correct way to read all this issue is through the lenses of "if it is problematic for children,it can be problematic for everyone, and thus requires a solution to a problem, rather than a vet of the entire topic"
The true issue at hand here is: gambling mechanisms to get money, and segregation to get money.
The true problem to solve is that the way the world we built pays better for optimizing evil than anything else
Sex is it's another story

@gullok @iju @joho the excuse of sex, most of the time (if not the entire time) is used to specifically harm two communities: women who have found a kind of work that is safer than it's previous iterations (webcam prostitution vs actual physical prostitution) and queer people. The queers has always been the primary target for saying "kids should never have ever any knowledge about sex or they turn queer and evil and queer and non-christian". Just change "sex" for "queer" and boom, all logical.

@gullok @iju @joho The duality of sex being both a taboo and a thing that everyone does leads to very confusing nonsensical things.What I would call "mystification" (make it obscure but with a lot of silent rules), akin to religious practices from secretive cults. Just on a global scale.
The relationship of children, teenagers and younger people with sex is currently as contradictory as I explained above and only harms them. Demystifying sex is probably the first step to solve that.

@Nawer_Rapter @iju @joho this is a great way to explain the issue!

@gullok @joho suddenly having your lifestyle made illegal

Blackmail when the DB gets leaked because you're at something that your employer doesn't like

Expecting to have the barest fucking trace of privacy and dignity

The data processor being subject to the Cloud act and you get sanctioned by the US for human rights activism and you can't use banking any more

@davey_cakes @joho what do you mean by a potentially “illegal lifestyle” here?

- religion or apostasy
- sexuality
- being trans
- drinking
- singing
- wearing particular clothes
- having certain political views
- dancing
- having a job

There's a long fuckin list, lad

Getting lynched because a bunch of neo-Nazis got your info from a leak and they class you as an undesirable

@gullok @joho
The fact that there has already been a complete failure to protect the data in existing solutions

@davey_cakes @joho your argument is pretty broad, like this is about having all of your life data somehow being uploaded (fun fact, big tech already does a pretty good job with this for profit).

but at the same time it is pretty clear that fascism can pop up out of nowhere and then such data could be brutally misused indeed.

One of the problems the new approach causes is that there are a lot of people, who neither of us would consider criminals, who have gone to great lengths to try and remain safe, and this breaks that for them.

eestileib (she/hers)Jun 11

Live in the fucking USA for a couple of months, understand what it means to have a repressive government, then think about it again.

ARGVMI~1.PIF Jun 12

@gullok

Does it worry you that almost every non-billion-dollar website, including this one, will be shut down?

Age verification is expensive. Extremely so. It hands a monopoly on all speech and communication to the very same social media giants that everyone is angry at, by making all alternatives illegal.

I don't know about you, but to say this worries me would be a monumental understatement. I am terrified.

ARGVMI~1.PIF Jun 12

@gullok

And before you retort “what about zero-knowledge proof”, that hands a monopoly on all speech and communication to the big two smartphone manufacturers, by making all alternatives, including GrapheneOS, Linux phones, and desktop PCs, unusable.

pecet 🦒Jun 11

@joho Scan your face or upload id if you have different political opinions than ruling party.

refraction

Jun 11

@pecet @joho actually having non-approved opinions has been banned. -5000 social credit, please check in at the local reeducation center.

Double "A" Ron 🇨🇦Jun 11

@joho Good Lord. I'm so ready to reduce both my screen and internet time significantly.

Mitch Rose Jun 11

@joho

anonymizing money (crypto) = good
anonymizing people (privacy) = bad

huh????

happyborg Jun 11

@joho and let us brick anyone's phone

... if the London Met Police get their way.

Danish Akhtar Jun 11

@joho

We are heading towards a Dystopian Surveillance society with no privacy rights.

Joaquim Homrighausen Jun 11

@danish_akhtar7 I'm afraid we're already there, the rest is just theory (IMHO).

Rat Sammich Jun 11

@joho
And then harmful sites suddenly incude anything content that doesnt fit the oppressive christian nationalist worldview or corpo agenda. It is just a dangerous slide into total censorship.

Mello Jun 11

@joho It does make sense for the first two tho. Or am I wrong?

Joaquim Homrighausen Jun 11

@crisps I think that's part of the problem. We, as a society, have failed to keep up with the rapid development of privacy intrusive billion dollar corporations (and government agencies) who, at their core, exploit human rights, such as the right to privacy.

Now the legislative branches and governments are trying to pretend they have a solution to a very difficult problem.

This is a double edged sword, to say the least.

(IMHO, of course)

Mello Jun 11

@joho but isn't age verification done for keeping kids away from the harmful stuff? Although I'm not sure about how effective it really is. I think they do it avoid responsibility when kids access those sites.

maxwyt34 Jun 11

@crisps @joho It seems so. Most age verifications are simply a confirmation of "yes, I'm 18."

Zimmie Jun 11

@crisps @joho A big problem is that age verification as actually implemented isn’t “if you’re a kid, you don’t get access”, it’s “you only get access if you prove you’re an adult”. This means information must be collected on all adult users, and the companies doing this collection have already failed to follow the most basic security practices over and over.

an actual bus Jun 11

@joho Hopefully if this happens tor usage will kick up and people will just start hosting their websites as hidden services.

FlynnO Jun 12

@renardboy @joho
With Google killing off search there are a couple of good reasons to go tor.
Thank you driver

an actual bus Jun 12

@fella @joho yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot, there's a non-zero chance I'm gonna try my hand at it in in the near future.

One time in the fairly distant past I thought about it but then didn't, because of "discoverability". But now I ask myself when the last time was that I discovered a worthwhile website through a search engine.

Myk Jun 11

@joho People cannot even agree on "adult sites"

The Vatican probably has a box of marble penises somewhere after Pope Pius IX (r. 1846-1878) had them removed from statues and replaced with leaves because it was "obscene"

Callisto Jun 11

@joho When we started having to scan our faces and upload our IDs to login to Medicare, it was all over.

今日割五城，明日割十城，然后得一夕安寝。起视四境，而秦兵又至矣。然则诸侯之地有限，暴秦之欲无厌，奉之弥繁，侵之愈急。故不战而强弱胜负已判矣。至于颠覆，理固宜然。
——《六国论》，苏洵

Today you cede five cities, tomorrow ten, only to gain a night’s respite. Yet when you rise and look around at the borders, the Qin troops are already here again. But the land of the vassal states is finite, while the insatiable Qin’s greed knows no bounds. The more you offer, the more fiercely you are invaded. Thus, without a single battle, the outcome between the strong and the weak is already decided. It is only natural that such a course should end in ruin.
— from On the Six Kingdoms, by Su Xun

Little Detritus Jun 11

@joho Some of you might like the statement from Germanys federal ethics committee. They argue based on the UN declaration of the rights of the child, and it´s a hard: NO.

More on this in German:
https://netzpolitik.org/2026/absichern-statt-aussperren-deutscher-ethikrat-sagt-nein-zu-social-media-verbot/

Deutscher Ethikrat sagt „Nein“ zu Social-Media-Verbot

Der Deutsche Ethikrat mischt die Social-Media-Debatte auf. Dem vielfach geforderten Verbot für Minderjährige verpassen die Expert*innen eine Abfuhr – und warnen eindringlich vor den Gefahren von Alterskontrollen. Die Analyse.

netzpolitik.org

pocket expert 🔞Jun 11

@joho at this point the yookay can fuck off and never come back to EU, we don't want that lunatic government here, and we already have to worry if the idiots in Brussels won't come up with something similar

but hey, hurrdurr the crotch goblins and the poor whamen who are oppressed by the evil trans agenda online or something