Mastodawn

Jan Lukas Gernert Jun 8

Talking to another parent yesterday and it seems we are among the last two holdouts giving our kids their own devices.

They have devices they can use but they aren't "theirs".

Some have smart phones already (age range 9-11). Many have smart watches.

When I voiced privacy concerns to other parents, I was made to feel like the bad guy for failing to protect my kids. They are the good parents for giving their kids the ability to call for help in case something happens on the way home. I live in the city and I'm pretty much at the furthest corner of our dense district at a whopping 800m from the school.

There's also the old Chinese saying, two actually I'd like to share. "Far away water can't save a near fire", and "close neighbours are better than far away relatives".

So my kids have an emergency on the walk home. What kind of community would I have to live in to feel like they can't scream for help or walk into the corner store for help?

This is all part of the erosion of society. Don't depend on your community. Give a subscription to tech bros to keep your children safe.

Friends, this is f'd. I should not need to depend on tech to guard my kids against a mythical threat when I should have neighbors and friends all around who contribute to the well being of all of us.

If your solution to safety is tech and not community building, your priorities are f'd and you're letting the tech bros eat what's left of your brain.

I hate when I'm made to feel like a bad parent for not caring about my children's safety.

Tech is not the path to child safety.

Update on this:

Another mom from a different circle noticed my kids without devices and was shocked I wasn't worried about their safety. Her friend works as a cop investigating child trafficking and the horror stories has her scared.

So I asked her why a kidnapper wouldn't just take the phone and chuck it. Then I asked if these girls were random on street kidnappings or lured from Internet randos.

She didn't respond.

Scary Austin Jun 6

@chu
In the US we've got a bunch of GenZers going back to flip phones of their own accord. As is often the case around here, the kids are wiser than their elders.

I'm an elder millennial and remember the pre-internet days. The children yearn for flip phones and video stores, and I agree with them.

Misuse Case Jun 6

@chu @MaryAustinBooks My son has his own “device,” but it’s a tablet without a cell connection and very strict parental controls. I told him he can’t have a smartphone until he’s 13. Maybe he will get a “dumb phone” before then if he really needs something.

Scary Austin Jun 6

@MisuseCase @chu
I bet he finds that upsetting, but it's really for the best. It's bad enough that we're constantly on our screens. At least our brains developed before we did that to them. And of course there are all the privacy concerns that Chu brought up. The virtual "street" is arguably more dangerous than the physical street.

Scary Austin Jun 6

@MisuseCase @chu

Like, the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't have a single age they recommend because every family is different. Every child is different. But they certainly don't treat it as "You have to give your nine year old a smartphone or you don't care about their safety." Good Lord!

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/family-life/Media/Pages/cell-phones-whats-the-right-age-to-start.aspx

Your Child’s First Phone: Are They Ready?

Deciding when to give your child their first phone can be tough for parents. Smartphones, in particular, offer a portal to the internet, apps and social media. You may not feel your child is ready for that much access to the digital world. Yet, you may want to get your child a phone for the basics: having a way to contact you when they’re traveling between school, after-school activities or different households. Here are tips to help you know if your child is ready.

HealthyChildren.org

@MaryAustinBooks @MisuseCase

Our plan is a dumb phone or land line around grade 7. Haven't thought it through yet.

Maybe a family line that's a dumb phone so if they really need it, it can leave the house and isn't connected to the wall.... But it's not "their" phone, it's a family phone that both can give the number to friends etc. I will need to see what's realistic/affordable when the time comes.

I know I can't delay the smart phone thing. That'll be a university thing I hope though when they are more mature and developed.

On one hand, not sure I can hold off that long. On the other hand, there seems to be some rejection as Austin says among the younger generation.... So maybe? (As I type this on my smart phone. Lol)

The Penguin of Evil Jun 6

@chu @MaryAustinBooks @MisuseCase It needs to be a pre university thing I think. There's a common theme living in a university town that students get into messes with the stuff they weren't allowed before they arrived.
Those whose parents banned alcohol totally get drunk, those who have no experience in other things go off the deep end there whatever it is (money, food, ...) as there's nobody around to keep them on the level.

@etchedpixels @MaryAustinBooks @MisuseCase

True. We are doing things mostly balanced. We don't eat a lot of processed foods and their Halloween candy isn't "banned" but it mostly just sits there. They are allowed but now uninterested.

They are allowed sips of beer. Weed is legal now and we talked about if they wanted to try it, we could do it together kind of thing. Not trying to make things taboo and desired sins.

Tech needs to be the same. Not taboo. Monitored and respected. Helps that dad is a professor in the tech field. He literally lectures on AI and the kids hear a lot of what's happening in the industry.

We recently had to replace our stove. We got the dumbest one we could find. Anything with wifi was automatically filtered out. They understand the reasoning behind most of these decisions and get that technology is a tool for good and bad.

They are watching a science show right now that's on YouTube (on a small laptop) but they get in trouble if they follow the recommended algorithms and click through anywhere.

You're right. Sudden freedom is not good either.

Tlachiquero Jun 6

@chu
When I was old enough to drive, like other kids I knew, the emergency communication strategy was a dime in my wallet. (Do pay phones still exist?)

fritzoids Jun 6

@Tlachiquero @chu

they've been taken down where I live.

@fritzoids @Tlachiquero

Same. There used to be one on the corner where the crossing guard is but it's just a slab of concrete now.

Poloniousmonk Jun 6

@fritzoids @Tlachiquero @chu

I saw one in a bar, but it was non functional. Just a piece of vintage decor.

fritzoids Jun 6

when my kids were in primary school (800m walk home) I had a discussion with another mother and she said she'd given her daughter a smartphone to protect her. When I asked "What from?" she answered "Pedophiles." And so I laughed and said "She's more likely to meet pedophiles on the internet with that phone than on the 5 minute walk home from school." That was not what she wanted to hear.

Nobody likes the truth.

How is that phone supposed to protect her from pedos anyways. Use it as brick to throw at them?

fritzoids Jun 6

LOL

Now that my kids have phones to take to school (their passes for public transport are on there and sometimes teachers will open up the WiFi and let them do stuff and the secretaries are apparently hesitant to let kids use the landline to call parents when they need to), the most serious conversation I've had with them is to please not look at other people's screens... I remember Rotten dot com and I know that some kids like to shock others... so I've told them there are things you can't unsee and things that will cause nightmares for weeks.

We also have a rule that us parents know the passwords and will occasionally go through their messages. The phones are not to be taken to bed. The parental controls are set so there's a time-limit on the screen being on and on the apps that can be used.

And in all seriousness, the self protection I gave my daughter is martial art training since age 6. It was a top priority for me as I suffer from trauma, every woman I know suffers from trauma of one sort or another via harassment or assault. I started looking into martial art schools near us since the stroller days.

Just turned 11 and will likely do her black belt testing in December. She thankfully takes her training seriously. I was looking at some of the kicks the other day. She can break boards quite easily (she has to for tests) but I was thinking a bit more growing (she's physically small for 11) her speed and technique can probably break a rib pretty soon.

The reality is that by the time she calls for help, it'll be too late. How long does it take me to get there? She needs to down the guy and run to somewhere where people are who can help her. The phone is a false sense of security. Self defense will at least buy her time to run. And boy can she run. She's fast.

Mike 🇬🇧 🇪🇺Jun 6

@chu @fritzoids
I admire you and your daughter for the martial arts.
However one thing I've learnt from 15 years of being a Tai Chi student (the nearest I've ever come to any martial art) is to avoid getting into 'situations' in the first place, to be aware of my surroundings, and be aware of other people's body language. Also to use others' momentum and movements against them.
Defence can be far more valuable than attack. I have absolutely no idea what any other martial art teaches, but these sound pretty sensible approaches to me.

@MikeFromLFE @fritzoids

Agree in principle but also want to add that as women, our threats normally come from people we know in situations that start off non threatening. Random, on street violence is rare and not even the thing I'm honestly most afraid of.

I watched 8 de-escalate a situation in the playground last week. They know the basics of staying away from threats but every woman will tell you, those aren't the ones we fear most. It's the ones coming from trusted people when we least expect it and wished we kicked our way out of there. Had I landed my attacker in the ER, there would be no questions about whether or not I asked for it.

It was in what I thought was a safe space with someone I trusted. Those threat assessment techniques fail us because these people get there by perfecting a non threatening persona. And they are the nicest people to us, to kids, to everyone.

AccordionBruce Jun 7

@chu @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids
This gets back to your original post about the parent trying to protect their child from abuse with a phone

Most abusers like you say, are someone the kid knows, a family member or friend

Who are we supposed to call when we were afraid to tell?

Teaching kids to defend and protect themselves, and that they have some adults that care for them no matter what happens

That seems like what will get them through

@MikeFromLFE @chu @fritzoids For the record, that's also what I was taught in Kung Fu. A big part of it was blocking, evasion, and breaking grips so you can get away. Part of the black belt grading (I watched) was to spend 5 minutes simply not being grappled by three guys.

@LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids

I watched my see hing do his level 10 wing chun test and the 10 minutes of defence was pretty incredible to watch.

I 100% agree. Defence is where it's at. But see my earlier comment to Mike. For us women, the randos aren't the threat. It's when trusted people have us in vulnerable situations and kicking our way out is all we got left.

@chu @LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids i taught self defence for over a decade, and ensured my daughters got their blackbelt too. As someone with numerous blackbelts of my own i can say that the ultimate lesson is not how well you can kick (although that's a pretty cool skill) but what i'd describe as being physically confident in a space. It's situational awareness combined with an understanding of your own body. Dancers often have this btw.

I've broken up or intervened in several violent situations, not because I'm super tough (I'm not), and all without throwing a punch. I've defended myself and a few others by recognising the danger and acting in a way to either defuse or avoid it.

Twenty years of training so that i should never use it. Sounds cliche, i know, but i look at my board breaking, hip throwing daughters walking with confidence and think, yup, they're safer now.

@jdmcg @LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids

100%.

Don't disagree with any of that. I see it as a last resort. When a man you trust unexpectedly has you pinned down out of nowhere.... Those are the situations where women become most vulnerable and all those preventive measures go out the window.

I want them to be able to break a fight, to de-escalate, to run first.... I get it. It's when they can't.

And I am putting her in martial arts well aware of the trauma I carry and how I wished I knew how to kick and punch back then. I get it.

I get that the martial arts I am learning now (making up for lost time) is so I don't have to use it. But having been in a situation where I wish I had it, I can tell you this isn't about knowing what's coming and having any kind of awareness of my physical surroundings.

This is about betrayal. About men abusing their positions of authority. About men abusing their trusted positions in the community.

This isn't about preventing on any of our parts except for parents to not raise boys into power abusing assholes.

I see what my daughter can do now and I can only hope if these things ever happen to her she can get out. There was nothing I, or any of my fellow victims ever did wrong. We shouldn't have been expected to "know" or not be in a place we thought we were supposed to be and thought was safe.

I did get out of my situation with one strong kick. I wasn't trained at the time though. And my biggest regret in life is that I didn't do it hard enough to put him in the ER. Because for over a decade the talk was non stop about how much of it was my fault or asking for it. Had I landed him a broken bone, I don't think that would have been asked. How much of this was my fault since he was a married man. Sorry. My trauma is coming out.

So please stop telling me about how much martial arts is about prevention. I get it. I have been training for a few years now with the kids and I get it.

There's no amount of prevention we can do in some situations. All we can hope for is to kick and punch our way out. I too hope she doesn't need this. But I'm glad she's got it.

@chu @LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids good on you.

And believe me, I've taught hundreds how to kick, elbow, bite, gouge, throw, break and otherwise, under pressure and against larger opponents. If i didn't think those skills might sometimes be needed, i wouldn't have bothered. Some of my students came with trauma, many with fear. They taught me a great deal i would never have understood otherwise.

So yeah. Kick ass.

@jdmcg @LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids

I replayed the scene many times in my head. I wish I kicked here or there or did a knife strike to the neck. I didn't have any of those skills then. Only a messy kick to the shins a push, some slapping probably and running.

The trauma will never go away. I literally started scoping martial arts schools before she could even walk. I have no other solution other than to give her the skills I wish I had at that moment I hope she will never experience.

Every move I watch her do I think "could that get him off of her? Was that enough to knock him down for her to run?"

None of this is healthy I know.

cwicseolfor 8h ago

@chu @jdmcg @LyallMorrison @MikeFromLFE @fritzoids The situation, the circumstances and culture, are unhealthy. You’re responding exactly the way any human would, after not just the initial trauma of it happening but the massive fractal compounding trauma of so many people *blaming the victim* for the assault - and saying in not so many words that they wouldn’t support your (or anyone’s) children, either.

(Also, editing, sorry to necropost, I only just spotted the date.)

Sarah Sammis Jun 6

@chu I was one of the close to school moms. I took calls from the high school that were often a friend of my daughter’s who needed a ride home because of a family emergency. I always said yes. For context they all graduated 2 years ago.

Shaula Evans Jun 7

@artbysarahsammis @chu My mom was that mom, too.

Sarah Sammis Jun 7

@ShaulaEvans @chu the high school is across town and railroad tracks from where a lot of the kids lived. No way was I saying no.

Shaula Evans Jun 7

@artbysarahsammis @chu ❤️

bees and nature Jun 6

@chu you would actually not be allowed by the school to let your pre senior school children walk home alone. They have to be handed to a known adult

In our school district, the rule is grade 4 they are allowed self dismissal. That means they can walk home alone by then... That's age 9 here.

That's why so many parents started to get devides at that age.

@chu man, F all those parents for edit: shaming (not gaming) you guys. Seriously. Not only is it not their business, they probably don't even care; it just feels good to gang up on people from the perceived moral high ground.

These are the same parents that push for age verification and when confronted with things like the american secret police kidnapping people off the street with "i can't believe this is happening, anyway did you see that new john hamm drama?!"

Also i get being the outsider too. It isn't as easy as just saying F them.

@chu hi. So much this.

I'm 47 without living parents, never had siblings or children. My closest relatives that I actually trust and would call when I "need an adult" are 11 hours away. I live in my childhood home with some of the same neighbors I've lived on this block with since the 80s. Guess who I text my flight itinerary to, who helps me dig my car out of the snow, who checks on me when a strange car is in front of my driveway? :D

I'd be lost without my neighbors ❤️

@chu
You're not bad at all. The most I did for my kids were ten dollar dumb phones from Tracfone, so they could learn how to call someone. Also, kids lose things. There was no way I was going to get them something that expensive.

One of mine liked to run off at random, and I did think about tracking devices, but more like little a little speaker that would go off if they went too far. The kid got over it eventually. Learning to talk to and assess the people around them is a much better skill to learn at that age.

Tokyo Outsider (337ppm)Jun 6

@chu You're not the bad parent, they are. They've just been given the right soundbites to justify to themselves the easiest choices they could make in the face of everyday pressures and commercially incentivised persuasion.

J. Ellis Burgos, LPC Jun 6

Thank you for this. 💜

A lot of people forget that the lesson we need to learn quickly is a very human one.

Mirishuli Jun 6

@chu My grandkids are 8 and 10. Their parents plus all of us grandparents are resisting phones with everything we’ve got.

We will lose the battle at some point because the 10 year old is active in dance and theatre. She’s going to need to coordinate rides and such. But we will wait just as long as possible.

EllenIn Edmonton Jun 7

@MiriShuli @chu
My grandkids got their phones quite young, and I'm fine with that because they go to dance 5 days/week and frequently need things sorted during the day when their mom is often travelling for work. I love getting text messages from them, and I see them using their devices very wisely. It seems like your kids are in a very different situation, with a bunch of at-home parents on the block. Parenting requires choices based on a family's situation.

@EllenInEdmonton @MiriShuli

It does. And we live in a society and at some point we just need to function.

A friend just came back from China and she said she couldn't even function without a cell phone. Not just a phone but a local one that is tied to bank accounts and ID and everything.

Panopticon but also seemlessly convenient. Soon the kids will need a phone to even buy candy from the corner store.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Jun 6

@chu We never gave our kids any phones. They bought them themselves with the proceeds of paper rounds, babysitting, etc.

PeaceNick🇨🇦 🏳️‍🌈Jun 7

<sarc>

"The walk home!"

You let them walk home‽ What sort of monster?

<\sarc>

@intothewestaway

Without a lie, society is quickly becoming that

I parent free range with a long leash. You should see the number of people in places like museums and even on the ferry yesterday telling me I need to stay closer to my kids.

I really wanted to tell him off.

Tall Simon Jun 7

@chu Mine were 15 and 16 before I got them a phone. They got their own PC but with Linux. Networks shut off at 10:30pm.

4 years later, they thank me for doing that.

💯

I'm a certified Old, & I get along just fine (mostly) with a simple flip phone. I do like having one on me, with a few numbers loaded for back-up.

But, yeah, compulsively giving kids phones "because safety" seems...less than well thought out.

Joan Combs Durso Jun 7

@chu good for you! Also, I am sure you already go hard at making community in those 800 meters and beyond. So kiddos know everyone and everyone knows kiddos. Teach them to “Make eye contact and small talk” with those known neighbors. (Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny, # 12. Field trips mean go hard building the school community, too. Even if some of them are snooty. Learn to have open conversations about anything—-wish Americans were better at this.

They know most of the neighbours on our street. They certainly know me. I used to write more frequently in the local paper (the last editor retired and new blood.... You know how that is) but many know me for my environmental columns. I am still a very active part of the farmers market and people know me from that, organizing community festivals, etc.

So many people know us.... During COVID, 3500 leaflets went out telling people to call me if they needed help. It started as a just my name and number on my block and I tried to encourage others to be "block captains". Ended up having a few hundred volunteers just hand out stuff with my name on it.

With all that I've done over the years (and still do), I do not at all feel shy to say if the kids need help, they could and should knock on any familiar door and get it.

We know so many people and so many people know us, if not by name at least by face. I don't feel like a device adds to their safety in the slightest.... But getting out in the community more will.

Joan Combs Durso Jun 7

@chu you are so far ahead on this! In wandering around my neighborhood, I am getting used to introducing myself and where I live. People are so hungry to talk and connect w/o ranting or being ranted at.

CassandraVert Jun 7

My kids didn't get a device at all until they were in middle school, and then it was a dumb phone. They played computer games from a young age. They just didn't need to carry one around.

@chu As an adult, nothing makes me feel safer walking in my neighborhood more than knowing my neighbors. Whether ones I'm close with or ones I'm aquatinted with. I grew up in a rural area, and my family who still live in rural areas (or worse the suburbs!) are shocked that in the "big city," my neighbors and I are friendly to friends.