RE: https://mastodon.social/@fesshole/116658300877114893

A corollary.

Once, long ago, I was hired at a new job. They gave me a big wedge of new-employee paperwork to fill out on the first day. One of the documents was a form assigning ownership of any intellectual property I came up with on my own time to the company.

I didn't want to do that, but I also didn't want to have a big fight over it. So I just tossed that form in the trash. If they really cared about it, I figured, someone would come bug me about it later. No one ever did.

People can ask you to do anything they want. But don't assume they care enough to fight over it just because they asked

@jalefkowit
Post-covid, my company has decided that it's a requirement to spend at least 2 days per week in the office. They changed the access tokens to a new system, and it took me 8 months to get into the office to retrieve that new token. They even said they would be monitoring token usage. Whatever.

My manager is in another country and he works 99.99% remote. Our division's director also likes working remote. Nobody I report to has said a word. Not one.

Their silence is assent.

@xinit @jalefkowit Can we be careful about terms like "post-covid"? It's still here. There is no post-covid. It's permanent now. It will never exist.

How about "post-pretending"?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to preach to the choir here, I legitimately think that it's important because the term aids the delusion people are living that it somehow went away.

That said, I think companies have this weird obsession about having paid for office space, so it must be used no. matter. what.

@[email protected]
Intended in the sense of "After covid arrived" since it seemed to make jobs that were "IMPOSSIBLE" to do remotely work just fine remotely. Even better.

Otherwise, agreed.

@jalefkowit

@jalefkowit

"You load sixteen tons, what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt."
--Merle Travis

Imagine anyone thinking they're entitled to own and profit from _everything_ you create during the hours your not wearing yourself out for them. Crazy.

I'm glad there were no consequences when you just "lost" that particular piece of paper.

@mmiasma It’s oddly common.

@Pineywoozle

It is. I just find it crazy that so many of us are willing to sign them (myself included, sadly).

@mmiasma I’m dyslexic, dysgraphic and an artist lol I was never in a position to have to. Thank goodness.
@jalefkowit Doesn’t have to be all or nothing, either. Another trick is crossing out objectionable terms in contracts, annotated with your initials or signature. If they sign it, too, then you’ve successfully amended the contract.
@tantramar I suspect from HR's perspective this is a side benefit of moving to electronic forms: you can't "lose" an electronic form, or break out the red pen on it
@jalefkowit And there are tools for diffing them in case of, uh, problematic individuals. ;)
@jalefkowit
ive done exactly what you suggested but using a pdf editor to redline. no one ever said anything. never thought to come up with a solution for hrcloud type systems though 🤔
@tantramar
@jalefkowit @tantramar i bet they have an alternate version of forms like that to swap in when people actually read them. I'm used to the version that says things invented their computer are theirs. They can't possibly own stuff done on my own time. The company I work for now has training about how you can't use their equipment for your side gigs.

@jalefkowit a long time ago at my wife's first job she told me one day she was feeling super burned out. Many of her colleagues had already left the company. She was straddled with a lot of their work. She was ready to quit, but as a new grad she needed the money. I coached her into telling her boss she's burned out and needed to switch to part-time or quit. They let her switch to a 20 hour/week schedule.

Salary was never negotiated. She was paid full-time on 20 hours a week for years.

@jeromechoo @jalefkowit TBF, I think she got really lucky. I mean, nowadays? Forget about it...
@mdione @jalefkowit luck certainly plays a part, but I think with most things out of the box, there’s a 0% chance to get what you want if you never try.
@jeromechoo @jalefkowit A friend of a friend got the sack but the company (a mega-corp) never stopped their salary. Kept on paying them for years.
@jalefkowit Hero move. I didn't understand this when I worked for dotcom era firms, but I can see it clearly now.
@jalefkowit Took me a while to learns those tricks, but I’ll testify that they work. …
But if the company wants to come after you, they will, regardless of what you sign or not.
@meltedcheese Oh sure. The forms just make it easier for them
@jalefkowit @meltedcheese I suspect such contract terms would be difficult to legally enforce anyway (even in some states of USA), it would need lawyers which the company isn't going to want to spend money on unless what you developed turns out to be worth millions of $
@vfrmedia @jalefkowit @meltedcheese I seem to remember that it's the default in the US that if you are under a work for hire contract, the company owns everything you make in or outside of the work place anyway? Maybe that's out dated info / state dependent...
@toerror @vfrmedia @jalefkowit That needs to be explicitly stated in the employment agreement. Many companies make this a condition of employment. Others will say they own the IP on any work-related project. If you create something on your own time away from work then the default is you own it. It’s worth noting that the company policies are governed by State law so things may be different depending on where you are.
@meltedcheese @vfrmedia @jalefkowit Interesting - some searching confirms this... It was 20 years back that I last looked into this and it seems the information available online was probably more in the form of contentious chat ;-)

@jalefkowit @fesshole a company I worked for insisted that I sign a document on my way out the door attesting that I’d deleted all data, etc. under threat of perjury if I hadn’t.

My question was “why would I sign this?” I had deleted all data. I had returned the laptop. But why would I sign a form that, at least in theory, put me at some legal risk when I was leaving the job? I wasn’t getting any incentive for that.

They kept pestering me about it. I ignored it. What were they going to do, fire me? I had already quit.

I’m sure a lot of people just sign. Eff that. There’s a bad enough power imbalance between employer and employee when you’re working for a company. I see no reason to give them a freebie.

@jzb
I once had an employer hand me an NDA to sign on the way out. I had my final check in hand, but I think they meant for me to understand it as an exchange.

"I can't sign this."

I intended to lay it on the desk, but missed, so it drifted gracefully to the floor, as I turned to walk out the door.

As you say, no incentive, they just hoped I was naive enough to accept the necessity. Not the first time they tried to manipulate me, of course.

Still one of the best jobs I've had! 🤣
@jalefkowit

@jalefkowit my company uses badge swipes to track if you're not in the office, and they bug your manager if you miss too many :/

@jalefkowit I had a job that required all staff to be a 20 minute drive (and hold a driving license) or 5 minute walk to the office, to handle emergency outages. And for new staff to visit client locations within their first month (and more specialised ones within their first six months).

I lived just under a 20 minute walk away, didn't have a license and never visited any client locations. But I was generally already in management's good graces because I looked smart in the interview and was well spoken so they decided I was A Good One, and nobody ever checked or gave me shit for it.

@jalefkowit As a related but tangential example of this, in Ontario where I live, it's illegal to evict someone or enforce most kinds of penalties due to having pets. But it's not illegal to *say* people can't have pets. Landlords will regularly list, "No pets," just to discourage people, but they legally can't enforce that in any way. People who are aware just ignore such clauses, but too many people, especially newcomers, don't know it's unenforceable.

@PastaThief @jalefkowit
That's interesting!

Reminds me of German law regarding employers asking about pregnancy: basically, employers are forbidden to ask whether you are pregnant or plan to have a child. If they are stupid enough to do so anyway, you can lie to them and accept the job. When they later find out, they can't do a thing.

@jalefkowit I did an artshow (artfair type of thing) that the owners were already social media assholes. I needed the cash. They sent a contract with 8 simple points. 8. said: "We have the right to photograph or video you, and/or your work and use for any marketing in perpetuity."

They sent this as a pdf, asked me to send it back as a pdf. I altered 8 to read: "We expressly wave any and all rights to photograph or video you, and/or your work and we will never use any that or any similar material for any marketing in perpetuity."

They emailed back stating all looked good, see you in 2 months.

When the show began the walked around with a DJI camera and I asked them to stop when they got to my booth. There were a lot of people around, so they did not make much of a fuss. But one of them took me aside and said: "I'll be back where there are less people." I smiled and said: "You should read the contract."

I already knew it was invalid since they never gave me a signed copy from their end.

Social media "influencers" are the most insufferable kind of narcissists.

@jalefkowit
Whenever I enter a contract, I read the entire thing, word for word.

I write down the points needing clarification and the items I don't agree with.

I go through all the questions with the counterparty. I ask, "What does this mean? Is this line item necessary?"

If I don't get a satisfactory answer, I cross it out and initial it. This is especially effective when purchasing a used car.

I rarely get pushback. Don't assume you must sign THEIR version. Question everything.

@jalefkowit One of my previous places tried to put this into an employment contract (not separate paperwork)... I said no, and they took it out. Just gotta stand your ground sometimes.
@jalefkowit Same thing you should do with non-compete agreements thrown in front of you.
@jalefkowit That's what I did with the non-compete agreement
@jalefkowit Related: Sometimes management genuinely don't care, but are required to enforce these things. If you ask, then they are forced to say no because there is now a record that they knew. But if you don't ask, they can plausibly deny knowing anything and can get away with letting you get away with it.
@uastronomer @jalefkowit the inverse happened too, in the Volkswagen firmware tampering scandal, where management denied knowing anything about it. Not very convincing but still…
@jalefkowit almost every place I've worked has had one of these clauses and I've never heard of a single case of it being actually used, even in a few rare cases where employee projects outside of work became a point of contention. I get the feeling that the clauses are a sort of legal incantation or meme, where it's only there because other orgs do it ("it's standard boilerplate") and not because they're useful or fair.
@gsuberland @jalefkowit i’ve heard of IBM trying to enforce them for a project, but don’t remember the details

@domi @jalefkowit I think in places like IBM or Cisco you're going to run into greater scrutiny of paperwork anyway, so trying to purposefully fall through the cracks is harder.

iirc when I was at Cisco the IP transfer clause was written directly into the employment contract so you couldn't really avoid it anyway. the only one you could've maybe done it with is the working hours statutory rights waiver, although AIUI in most cases they can't mandate signing that one anyway.

@domi @gsuberland @jalefkowit From personal archives. They required linking your GitHub account *and* if I would've signed-off my commits back then with anything else than [email protected], I would've gotten a stern talking to (which is why I've been throwing my patches at @weirdtreething or Matt until I left)
@jalefkowit broad automatic IP assignment clauses aren't illegal in the UK yet, but onerous noncompetes were made unenforceable in November 2025, and the courts seem to have decided that the spirit of the law largely transitively applies to unfair IP assignment too, even though on paper it doesn't.
@gsuberland @jalefkowit
"If you're not gonna use it, then remove it from the contract"
@jalefkowit Once I got a non-compete to sign which was too broad to be acceptable to me. I asked them clarify the scope of it, and the response was "whatever, it wouldn't be enforceable against you anyway", so I just never signed.
@jalefkowit come to think of it, every serious work-related contract I’ve signed had some modifications made to it on my request. Never had to make a big fuss about it.

@jalefkowit

Mike Rafi is lawyer is does YouTube shorts. He talks about going to rent a car and actually reading the liability form and crossing out any sections he doesn't agree with and then signing the form. It's perfectly legal, because if the rental place doesn't agree with the new liability form, they can just refuse to rent him a car. That's never happened.

@jalefkowit many years hence one of the big ones asked me to sign nda, security and copyright assignment that I had read their folders and understood +agreed.
As they didn’t have the folders for me to read I just handed them back with a question mark and no signature.
Someone got upset and asked me and I asked for the folder. Then nothing happened at all.
Turns out nobody had ever seen them.
@jalefkowit oh yes! I had similar albeit different outcome! I was given the same on the first day at one of my first jobs, I refused to sign and was escorted out. I pointed out it was unreasonable and they should have asked that *before* I started but they just insisted "well everyone else signed it and didn't have a problem with it" 🤦‍♂️
Shortest ever job. About 3 hours.
@jalefkowit I had that. But I just didn’t sign it. Years later when I left, they tried to make me sign it at my exit interview.
I was just sysadmin, nothing to do with the actual software being sold too

@jalefkowit

I brought a ruler to meetings where I was to sign a contract they wrote (for services), and neatly crossed out and initialed paragraphs and terms I didn't like -- right in front of them while I explained.

I never lost a job, and nobody really cared other than raised eyebrows. The worst thing that happened was having to wait for the contract to be edited and re-printed.

A lawyer family-friend suggested this long ago and I assumed this is how things were done.

@jalefkowit the last time I had a contract that tried to do that, I crossed out the relevant words before I signed. No one said anything.

@jalefkowit

Definitely flip over that medical paperwork and read the fine print on the back to make sure you’re not authorizing them to use video of your care to train your colleagues and students (in a university medical system).

If it turns out I have a super educational situation to offer, sure, I might consider it. But a blanket release? Nah.

@jalefkowit I applied to so many jobs that had ridiculous requirements. I applied anyway and got job(s). Only one manager questioned me and I asked who on the team had those skills. He had no answer.
@jalefkowit funny. When the company I was working at, Platinum Technology, got acquired by Computer Associates, they made everyone reapply for their existing job. An IP form like that was also part of the deal. It never even occurred to me to just ignore it. That form, and the insult of making me reapply, is what prompted me to quit and found Symas Corp.

@jalefkowit
This.

When the company I worked for was bought out by a larger conglomerate, they made us all sign new employment contracts, and there was a clause that we couldn't go work directly for the client.

This was ridiculous since it's a government town and the biggest client. Leaving consultancy for a government job with pension was common.

So I crossed out the line, initialed it and handed it in. Never heard back.

Years later when I told my boss I was leaving for a government job, he tried to hold that over me.

I told him I think if you go look at my contract in the HR records you'll find that that clause was crossed out, and as no-one took me to task over it I consider it null and void.

He admitted defeat and shook my hand.

@jalefkowit I've actually had that fight a couple of times because it was a clause in the employment contract, so I couldn't accept the job without accepting the clause. One was a complete success, but involved rolling up on my first day without having officially signed on yet (signing the reworded contract was the first thing I did that day). Second was a written statement of "we don't actually mean it" (still stupid, but the efficacy of such overreaching IP clauses here is already dubious)
@jalefkowit We don't ask for permission. We ask for forgiveness.

@jalefkowit - FWIW on multiple occasions (in the UK) I've just asked for that paragraph to be removed or re-written, and every time my request has been granted. Often there's a clause stating 'except where explicitly agreed by all parties', so you can just get a side letter saying 'everything' is excepted, or 'anything which doesn't harm the employers business or detract from my ability to do the work'. I'd never sign a contract with the paragraph in its original form. Basically my experience is that you can successfully negotiate the text of employment contracts.

Now I'm in a position to occasionally hire people I always make sure that the contract they get is one I'd personally be happy signing rather than just assuming the default text is okay.

@jalefkowit An interesting one in the UK is non compete clauses on contracts; if you are hired at a sub c-suite level then in the event of a legal altercation, the clause is deleted from the contract, and in fact, if the clause was added when you were hired as a rookie, and you worked up to director, then it is deleted from the original contract, and all subsequent versions. So having a non compete in the contract in the uk actually protects you from that very clause if you get promoted!