Mastodawn

Striking that the Liberals and Conservatives offer the same response to pain at the pump: siphon money out of the public purse instead of Big Oil’s profits.

Oil companies are on track to make tens of billions in windfall profits from Trump’s illegal war in Iran.

It’s their profiteering that’s driving up prices. It’s them who should pay.

It’s time for price caps on gas to stop oil companies from price-gouging Canadians — and a windfall profits tax on war-time oil revenues, so the government can invest that money in the public interest.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carney-fuel-excise-tax-affordability-9.7162911

Carney temporarily suspending federal fuel excise tax on gas, diesel and aviation fuel | CBC News

A day after sweeping three byelections in Ontario and Quebec that gave him a majority in the House of Commons, Prime Minister Mark Carney says he is temporarily removing the federal excise tax on gas and diesel.

CBC

AnnieBuddy 21h ago

It's almost as though the Progressive Conservatives couldn't win back their own party, so they took over the Liberals.

Ron Dyck 20h ago

@AnnieBuddy @avilewis I would agree, but I think perhaps the Liberals decided to pre-empt that by defecting into neoliberal-mode worse collective outcomes. Like the post going around, "by being the same as Republicans, we can defeat the Republicans."

Icanbob 20h ago

@avilewis Agree with the sentiment, but MMT’rs like Stephanie Kelton would argue that the Canadian gov doesn’t need to tax anyone to invest in projects. Parties like the NDP would do well to listen to the MMT’rs narrative and stop parroting the same questionable neoliberal economic stories that the other parties have swallowed.

dragonfrog 20h ago

@icanbob @avilewis
If you think MMT means "taxes are unnecessary now" you have probably misunderstood MMT.

Governments spend money into circulation, and tax it out of circulation. If they only spend it and never tax it, then the circulating pool of money grows too quickly: hyperinflation. Trust me that you don't want that.

Gordarnit 19h ago

@dragonfrog @icanbob @avilewis Correct Canada does not need tax money to invest in projects, also correct that they would need to tax money back to prevent hyperinflation.

Jane Doe 15h ago

@dragonfrog @icanbob @avilewis That’s an incomplete analysis. The value of money is determined by the supply of money relative to the amount of value available to be purchased in the economy. As a result, printing money for public investment does not cause hyperinflation, because the additional value created by investment at least partially offsets the increased money supply.

dragonfrog 14h ago

@janef0421 @icanbob @avilewis assuming there's no competition in the economy for the inputs into the project, sure. But there is, in fact, competition for construction labour and materials.

Jane Doe 14h ago

@dragonfrog @icanbob @avilewis Unless there’s a supply persistent supply shortage, that isn’t going to offset the increase in produced value. It might impact prices of those particular goods, but that isn’t inflationary by definition.

Icanbob 14h ago

@avilewis @janef0421 @dragonfrog Here is my take on MMT.

https://energyasicit.ca/MMT/

Icanbob 14h ago

@dragonfrog @avilewis I really love Warren Mosler’s business card analogy which shows that taxes are what gives fiat money it’s value.

Alessandro Corazza 🇨🇦20h ago

Oil companies don't even set prices, so the economic soundness of this take is questionable. I think a better approach is to let high prices take their course, stop subsidizing big oil capital projects, and fund publicly-owned renewables instead.

Olivier 20h ago

@alessandro, maybe all of it? I'm skeptical on the feasibility of a price cap, but ending oil subsidies and windfall taxes on wartime profits are fair game and way overdue.

Alessandro Corazza 🇨🇦19h ago

How would that be parsed when so much oil is sold via futures - should oil contracts purchased before the price spike be taxed more, or should revenue months down the line be taxed instead? And if we tax windfalls, should we subsidize their lean years?

I also don't want further dependence on tax revenue from an industry that we should get rid of.

Hallucinationsofasiliconslab 19h ago

@alessandro @dacmot @avilewis Show me what their lean years consist of and maybe we'll consider a proposal to "help" them. However, if we find that they used their profits to lobby government for favourable legislation to continue the use of fossil fuels instead of the transition to cleaner energy, then we hammer them with the costs of climate change due to the use of their product.

Alessandro Corazza 🇨🇦19h ago

Oh there's no doubt they funded lobbying! But that isn't just a big oil problem - everybody does it. We need to drop the hammer on all of them, but it's a separate issue.

@dacmot @avilewis

Hallucinationsofasiliconslab 18h ago

@alessandro @dacmot @avilewis We can drop the hammer on all of them eventually. I suggest we deal with the climate problems caused by their products. Using the government to tax them out of existing at the level they're at, would be a good start. Might even come up with some less violent solutions for dealing with billionaires too

Olivier 18h ago

@Karnbot13 I agree with you in principle: we need to get rid of fossil fuels, and the sooner the better.

Unfortunately, such a draconian method could cause further gas price hikes and be very unpopular. Any government implementing this would need to lie by omission to be elected, if they are elected at all, and would almost certainly be ousted at the next elections.

Would it be worth it? Maybe. It could give the jolt we collectively need to change our destructive way of life. I have a feeling however it would be short lived.

@alessandro @avilewis

Hallucinationsofasiliconslab 17h ago

@dacmot @alessandro @avilewis I am not a doomer, I believe we will make the right decisions, if we have good information. We know what the problem is and our conservative\neoliberal governments refuse to do much for anyone other than the obscenely rich, who just happen to own most of the sources of the information. It's funny that it always has to be cuts to the public services and never return to the post WW II tax rates of the 50s. We can't wait too much longer to deal with this though

Olivier 19h ago

Good points @alessandro.

World events are known to everyone. The same way that the Carney government is pausing tax collection, this trigger could be used to increase tax collection on oil companies.

For the rest I'm really just speculating because I don't know how this works in practice. My idea would be to base this additional tax on comparing companies profits of a given year with the average of 3 years prior to the significant event. Maybe not the best way to implement this, but simple.

In any case, as Avi said, cutting the federal gas tax is not a good way to help people financially. It'll be popular because people will immediately see the difference (hopefully). But with little competition, there is nothing preventing retailers from keeping prices high and pocketing the tax. This essentially redirects public funds in the the pockets of those who are already making bank.

As for depending on oil revenues, I'm with you there. One way could be to use it as a lump sum to pay back the debt instead of being incorporated into the budget and spent.

Toni Aittoniemi 19h ago

@avilewis Neoliberalism or the worship of business is madness. You bankcrupt the state voluntarily only for them to buy it up and tell you: ”see, we told you it wouldn’t work like that!”.. And then the stock market crashes and out come the hats again.

Gordarnit 19h ago

@avilewis Now is a good time to spend a big chunk of the project money on renewables. Oil is the problem not the answer.

Graydon 19h ago

@avilewis It's not time for profit caps.

It's time to Chapter 7 liquidate all the oil companies (and anyone else doing fossil carbon extraction) and shut them all down.

Yes, that would mean a whole bunch of other activity so farming would keep working, but we need to do all of that, too.

@avilewis Wouldn't that lead to gas shortages, as the suppliers sell to other countries who are willing to pay more than Canada's capped price?

Are gas shortages an acceptable part of the transition off fossil fuels or is a gentler transition still possible?

Barry Cook 🇨🇦18h ago

@avilewis - Carney taking the Liberal Party to Tory Lite aside, Its the profiteering by the companies, countries and stock market that is responsible for the hike in prices - especially in North America, where we natively have the product and the ability to refine it for our purposes.
But mention that is some quarters (like Alberta) and you'll be seen as a direct challenge to them.

sleepy62🍁🛠️ 🖥️ 🔬 🌞18h ago

I really wish he would have announced a 2.5B$ investment in #renewables and #EV charging, instead of yet another #fossilFuels subsidy.

RantingCanuck 13h ago

@sleepy62 @avilewis

Predominantly foreign owned O&G companies in Canada are going to make an extra $6B+ from 47's war on Iran... Instead of spending $2.4B of public money on a gas tax cut, Carney could have enacted a 75% excess profit tax (bringing in $4.5B+) and split the revenue 50/50 between renewable infrastructure and a affordability rebate to the 80% of Canadians with the lowest household incomes.

It would have helped more, would have resulted in actual generational infrastructure (which he like to talk about), and wouldn't require cuts to other programs to pay for.

sleepy62🍁🛠️ 🖥️ 🔬 🌞12h ago

@RantingCanuck @avilewis

And they can do that now cus majority... but then they seem to be shit scared of upsetting the fossil industry.

MisterStormwing 14h ago

@avilewis more like war-crime oil revenues.

Michael T Babcock 10h ago

@avilewis strong disagree. Its time for gas to cost twice as much and for people to realize they need to stop buying cars that use it. Purchasing gas is the problem, not the price of it. Average Canadian drives 15,200km/yr = ~1300L of gas at average 8.5L/100km. Saving $0.10/L is not exciting. Saving the whole $1.75/L is. Stop driving gas-only cars.
#EV #PHEV #vehicles #cars #driving #electrify

John E Bartley III (D) K7AAY📎9h ago

@mikebabcock @avilewis And mandate apartment dwellers have chargers.

Michael T Babcock 8h ago

@503bartley @avilewis a number of places in Canada require EVSEs to be installed in all new builds. Putting them in older builds is harder. Requiring them in parking lots like handicap parking would be lovely though.

Frank Bennett 🇯🇵5h ago

@avilewis That's what seems to be happening here in Japan. The end result of sudden-onset rationing will be interesting to observe (as a cyclist).

@avilewis a very interesting discussion here, thank you. Perhaps we need to plan a future that we want to see and detail it out, including the small steps required. Get public support for that (allowing for modifications along the way) and thus reduce the mismatch of what is, what’s needed and where the investments/money will be made in the future. Provided of course we don’t allow too much money going to any one company or individual.