Cory DoctorowToday's threads (a thread)
Inside: Process knowledge; and more!
Archived at: https://pluralistic.net/2026/04/08/process-knowledge-vs-bosses/
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Syntaxxor 🏳️‍⚧️ 
@pluralistic There's an excellent point at the end here that I never really considered before:
"And of course, the people who value process knowledge the least are the AI bros who think you can replace skilled workers with a chatbot trained on the things they say and write down, as though that somehow captured everything they know."Online posts and chats and documentation and everything else a chatbot might train off of are generally written to explain the output and structure of a thing to someone else. And while that generally means they'll be on the simpler side, easier to digest, it also is usually a very lossy process. I'm most familiar with how it works with programming, but I'm sure it applies to anything technical enough. And by "technical" I mean basically anything which involves process knowledge. So most positions outside the Board and the C-Suite.Explaining how something works rarely gets into the nitty gritty of exactly why each coding decision was made. Yet that's by far the most valuable thing to understand about any given piece of code. Those important conversations of imparting knowledge will happen in far more personal contexts. Usually through word-of-mouth, which means it never gets documented. Because how can it be documented? Even when it's talked about online, in things like those tumblr posts, it often only scratches the surface of the sheer depth of knowledge needed to actually do something.
The best teacher, the only one whose lessons can really be trusted, is experience. And a chatbot that can only be trained by reading existing text will never be able to learn from experience. Thus, it can't really be trusted to actually make correct, informed decisions based on real knowledge of what's needed in a specific context.
</rant>
AethonI agree and think this has always been the case. The process is one thing, the skills and knowledge to apply it can only be learned through experience.
Example- I have some reprints of 19th blacksmithing manuals. And although they might describe the process of welding an axle, or forging a wrench, it always assumes that, as the reader, you know what a welding heat is, about the correct temperature for drawing down, how to make the tools required to make the tool (first forge an eye punch of 1 inch) and so forth.
If you have never got your hands dirty doing the work, whether smithing, working front line support or deep in the code base (something I cannot do but admire), you simply don’t know.
And as you say, from that lack of knowledge comes the ignorance that leads to a misunderstanding of value and need.
j_bertolotti@tempusfelix Just think about all the implied knowledge in any cookbook. Recipes can be compressed to a page or two only because they assume you already know how to do a lot of the stuff they are talking about. If you have no idea how to cook, no amount of cookbooks will ever help you.
@syntaxxor @pluralistic
@syntaxxor @pluralistic
Robotistry@j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic This is one of the things grade school should be *for* - ensuring adults have basic process knowledge across a range of disciplines. Cooking, woodworking, sewing and mending, visual art, dance, cleaning, music, sculpture, managing one's finances, gardening, household repair and maintenance, metalworking....
(I'm still salty that as a girl, I had to take cooking and sewing and wasn't allowed to take woodworking and metalworking. I eventually learned woodworking, but metalworking seems so *cool*!)
Duck Marshall 🚲@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic When I was in high school at the turn of the millennium, the home economics and shop classes were for both boys and girls, and we genuinely had a good mix in both! Unfortunately, the same school no longer offers any of those classes now, 25 years on. It's heartbreaking! I had learned the basics of sewing and woodworking both at home but the classes at school gave me the theory and then much more scope to experiment with materials.
There was a quote from an old science fiction book about the true skills of a (who)man are to care, build, invent, defend and share but due to the internet being filled with Ai slop, I can’t find it! I agree, school should teach you how to be a functioning human in a supportive society not a consuming cog. And yes, metalwork is very cool. I recommend having a go at blacksmithing. It’s accessible for most and gives you an insight to an old skill! School metal shop was more machining and bending for us.
Chris Hodges@tempusfelix @Robotistry It sounds very Heinlein, but the closest I can find is Lazarus Long in Time Enough for Love https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
@tempusfelix @Robotistry "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
@HodgesC @tempusfelix Really not at all comfortable with Heinlein. As always, his stuff comes with a heaping side of militaristic "manly man" vibes. (Sometimes I enjoy it, but like E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen, there are times when I just can't take the stereotypes and propaganda.)
For example, he includes "plan an invasion" and "fight efficiently" and "die gallantly" (all of which are most useful in conflict) but leaves out "teach" (which is fundamental in both times of conflict and times of peace).
There is no universe in which I would put "butcher a hog" on a list of generalist skills (in part because there is no universe in which I am strong enough to maneuver something that heavy without hurting myself).
While I did design a backyard shed (which was very satisfying), I like experts to check for things like "sensibly integrated plumbing and heating/cooling" and "have we actually thought through the implications of the design with respect to fire safety and water resistance".
Agree that generalization is good, and process knowledge is essential, but whew, that list is very much not the things that I would choose!
Nicole Parsons@Robotistry @HodgesC @tempusfelix
Context is important, Heinlein was an ex- Navy officer who lived during the Great Depression and both world wars.
He wrote this in 1973.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
The necessary skills of today & the future are likely to be very different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein
Being human means having scope to explore skills beyond what's useful to the Epstein Class
@Robotistry @tempusfelix
I also have issues with Heinlein - but tend towards the view that he's worth reading, occasionally, with your eyes open.
I didn't think that was likely to be the right quote (I still think he wrote a closer list to the one we're looking for), but conceptually the idea of a range of adaptable skills is a fairly common one. Of course it's also in keeping with his libertarian style.
Steven Heywood@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic
At our school we didn't get to see or do any of the cool stuff in metalworking class, most of which consisted of our filing ingots of steel into roughly luggage-label-shaped pieces with rasps a blacksmith would use for polishing his baby's toenails.
At our school we didn't get to see or do any of the cool stuff in metalworking class, most of which consisted of our filing ingots of steel into roughly luggage-label-shaped pieces with rasps a blacksmith would use for polishing his baby's toenails.
@Stevenheywood @Robotistry @j_bertolotti @syntaxxor @pluralistic
Heavens. A farriers rasp is hardcore. My favourite file name is a number 1 bastard.
Our metal class was make your own hammer. Lathe work, drills and lots and lots of filing.
markc568@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic
My state used to be kind of progressive. When I stated junior high in 1980 (7th grade), everyone had to take all of them! These were all fun!
Woodworking, metalworking, cooking, sewing, drafting.
I think there was one more?
@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic
But not just grade school - everything up to grad school!
Or at least most people should revisit most of these things most of the way through their compulsory education.
The really nice thing about having some skills, is that learning related ones becomes easier - with basic woodworking and metalworking, learning enough sewing for repairs and upcycling wasn't hard.
@HodgesC @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic Most of the process knowledge I was thinking of is less about needing regular reinforcement so you'll always be able to do it well and more about achieving "ride a bicycle" levels of not being scared to try it or likely to put yourself in unsafe situations while relearning it.
If you haven't ridden a bike for a couple of decades, that first 5-10 minutes will be *rough*, but it'll come back to you. Same with reading a recipe, using a sewing machine or power tool, drawing.
The stuff you need every day or week or month like budgeting and buying groceries will stay smooth, and you'll have enough background information and residual knowledge to relearn the rest from youtube or wikis or manuals or practice as needed.
@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic
Given all the courses to help adults to get back on their bikes for commuting, I tend think that riding a bike isn't much like riding a bike. But some form of irregular reinforcement is always helpful. I may have to do some plumbing soon for the first time in a few years, referring to a manual.
Plus, learning new stuff is fun. I started riding a unicycle a few years ago (still not good enough do more than laps of a sports hall)
@Robotistry @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
@Npars01 @Robotistry @j_bertolotti @syntaxxor @pluralistic
Thank you! That’s the one.
@Npars01 @j_bertolotti @tempusfelix @syntaxxor @pluralistic Really don't like that particular list - explanation here: https://fediscience.org/@Robotistry/116377790962851565
Robotistry (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] Really not at all comfortable with Heinlein. As always, his stuff comes with a heaping side of militaristic "manly man" vibes. (Sometimes I enjoy it, but like E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensmen, there are times when I just can't take the stereotypes and propaganda.) For example, he includes "plan an invasion" and "fight efficiently" and "die gallantly" (all of which are most useful in conflict) but leaves out "teach" (which is fundamental in both times of conflict and times of peace). There is no universe in which I would put "butcher a hog" on a list of generalist skills (in part because there is no universe in which I am strong enough to maneuver something that heavy without hurting myself). While I did design a backyard shed (which was very satisfying), I like experts to check for things like "sensibly integrated plumbing and heating/cooling" and "have we actually thought through the implications of the design with respect to fire safety and water resistance". Agree that generalization is good, and process knowledge is essential, but whew, that list is very much not the things that I would choose!