# WireGuard VPN developer can't ship software updates after Microsoft locks account
I should be surprised if Windows will ever be suitable outside niche hobbyist communities with this kind of unreliable behaviour.
Real users need consistency and stability.
@neil I would say that there is a certain amount of #AppleEnvy at #Microsoft and #Google right now.
A #WalledGarden allows higher #Rent and cheapens compliance with legislation that attempts to restrict what users can do.
Open source - and thus backdoor-free - VPNs and e2ee are probably being targeted as preemptive obedience to future laws.
@tomstoneham @neil to be fair it's quite easy for people to leave windows and switch to linux.
A lot of gaming is already happening on linux and I am astonished when like >60 people working in non-tech jobs are talking about linux distributions
> it's quite easy for people to leave windows and switch to linux.
For *some* people, sure.
For a lot of people, probably not, sadly.
@tomstoneham @neil thats low status tech
high status tech is using a stickered ThinkPad with the original IBM keyboard
we might work in different industries
@tomstoneham @neil personally I don't care if you use a MacBook or a sleek Dell or whatever
I wouln't even think about status. That's completely normal stuff.
But having a club mate, strauss pants, gayish piercings and running arch linux on an X220 now that is my in-group that I would call high status.
@tomstoneham @neil you can't fathom the SHAME oozing out of me for having to work with a high end 2800 € apple device at work
when it got delivered I put that box as far away as possible and when I am done with what I need it for I shall never need to put it in my physically vincity again
I noticed almost a sort of performance of "I can't smile while opening this apple box lest people might think I'm scum"
Just for your "high status" consideration
@saxnot @tomstoneham @neil my college HOD deadass runs a really cool old thinkpad as her daily
But then she uses windows 😔
(@jackpots was this a dual boot situation or standalone windows?)
@neil @saxnot @tomstoneham 1/2 That is the point to repair cafes that offer installs of Linux for those with modern computers that cannot run Windows 11.
Most people have limited needs from a computer and setting up a Linux desktop say XFCE in such a way that it mimics older versions of Windows allows people to transition easily.
I moved my remaining elderly parent over to Linux on their macbook ten years ago. With XFCE and a MacOSX theme and the panel at the top the transition was painfree.
@neil @saxnot @tomstoneham 2/2 They had been using non-Mac browsers for a while and the SeaMonkey email client was close enough in appearance and function to replace Apple Mail without any issues.
They could not have installed Linux and the customisations themselves but they were fine using what was installed for them and adapted very quickly.
@the_wub @tomstoneham to be honest the Windows installer sucks so much ass
instead of asking all config at the very start it asks a single thing, then processes for 10 min and then asks the next thing. It's abysmally bad design. I hate installing Windows it's so much slower and complicated than just installing some arbitrary linux distro.
On mint / debian / ubuntu you put in all your data, click ok and then you can wait while the computer does everything in one step
@neil
This is an 'argument' I always refuse to accept.
It assumes that Windows and Mac users are proficient at using their respective operating systems to the point that they 1) can install and configure it independently, and 2) are able to troubleshoot and solve their own problems. It also suggests that only on Linux they would run into trouble, and become dependent on a third party.
The reality, in my experience, is rather different. Most users don't have a clue how to install their OS, as in all likelihood it came pre-installed with their system. Most people will call a friend or family member to help with a computer problem, or search the internet for instructions they don't actually understand. To them, computers are nothing more than a tool, much like their car. And their car, they take to a mechanic, even for the smallest thing they could do themselves.
Switching to Linux poses the same issues as switching from Windows to macOS (and vice versa).
1/2
A Windows user switching to macOS, with no one in their social circle who's familiar with Macs, will suffer just as much as someone switching to Linux without having fellow Linux users they can ask for help. The same goes for macOS users wanting to move to Windows, Android to iOS, etc.
The real problem isn't the (perceived) difficulty of Linux, but rather the lack of popular software such as Microsoft Office, Photoshop, combined with the natural resistance to change, and the sheer unwillingness to learn something new.
Distros such as Linux Mint, Zorin OS, or Elementary OS, to name but a few, have pretty much eliminated the UI learning curve, thanks to their close resemblance to either Windows or macOS, or their ability to switch layouts at will.
2/2
@aerion @tomstoneham there ie LibteOffice which does the same thing like Microsoft Office.
the people I knoe who still use Windows are not the people who use advances Microsoft Office Features or the shortcuts anyway
Please can you drop me from further replies to this thread?
@neil ok
I will try to edit the messages people are most likely to respond now.
Also on mastodon you can mute a whole conversation and all its participants behind the three dot menu
@saxnot
I don't think the advanced features are the main obstacle in switching from MS Office to alternative office suites. Sure, in certain environments this may be a showstopper, but the two key issues are:
1) Having to learn something new. Most people have a huge aversion to anything with a learning curve, anything that's different from what they're used to. The introduction of a ribbon style interface option in LO goes some way towards addressing the issue, but ultimately LO does not work like MSO, and that introduces friction in someone's workflow.
2) People are held hostage by the OpenXML format. MS have done an outstanding job in effectively killing off ODF, by introducing + fast tracking their OpenXML format, while at the same time making sure that ODF support is deliberately crippled. Even if people are able (willing?) to overcome the functional differences, this is what makes people stick to MSO.
For the record, I've been using LO since the Star Office days.
@aerion @tomstoneham recently I have been using macOS 26 and it's confusing as hell!
The settings look like on a phone, all files have weird icons I don't know and programs never close but minify.
I still haven't figured out how to switch between full screen software I always have to un-fullscreen the application.
I have been using computers for all my life, usually a power user no matter where I am. Excelled at my cs studies.
And yes this foreign macOS confuses me. Practice will help
@aerion @tomstoneham I'm sure MacOS works very fine for people who are used to it.
The same like a VHS player works better than a DVD player for people more used to it.
One day I will be better at usinf macOS simply because I did it more.
I like how the downloads create some sort of crooked jenga tower next to the trash can that's fun.
> This is an 'argument' I always refuse to accept
Sure! That is your prerogative.
Nothing that you've written backs up the claim that switching to Linux is "easy" though. Just that other things will also be hard for some people.
@neil
What about the part that the UI learning curve has pretty much been eliminated? 😃
The issue people have (again, in my experience) is having to learn a new way of working. It's the perceived difficulty that switching to a Linux system means not being able to use it without having to learn something first.
Yet the Windows desktop paradigm means that Windows users will instinctively gravitate to the same areas they're used to on Windows: the start button, task bar, system tray, etc. I'm less familiar with macOS and equivalent DEs on Linux to be able to compare them, but Xfce seems to be familiar to Mac users.
I don't, and didn't, claim that switching to Linux is easy. But I reject the notion that it is difficult. And I would argue that it is, in fact, easier to switch from Windows/macOS to Linux than Windows <—> macOS, thanks to the ability to choose a similar UI in case of the former, unlike the latter.
The real difficulty, as stated, lies with the apps.
Then we are probably dancing around semantics a bit.
I very much welcome more people using Linux, and exploring the wealth of Free software out there.
@neil
I guess we are 😃.
And yes, I encourage people to switch to Linux, especially those that don't rely on Microsoft or Adobe software, or are open to switching to alternative apps. Switching them to #FOSS where possible, on their own platform, is a useful first step.
Windows 11, and Apple's abandonment of their Intel machines, are a tremendous help with this process.
"No, you do NOT have to buy a new computer. Your current one EASILY has another 10 years of life left in it if you switch to Linux". 😲
> the start button, task bar, system tray, etc
all of which my girlfriend also has on her linux
i haven't done any config for her.
It's not like Microsoft Windows invented the things they copied from Apple which they copied from Xerox. It's just a popular UI pattern.
It's no big problem and switching to linux is far easier than some of you pretend to
@aerion @tomstoneham have you SEEN the computer problems the average joe has?
like not seeing a button or not knowing how to open a browser or how to print a pdf? All of these real problems are still the same no matter if you use Windows XP, Vista, 7, 10, Apple macOS, Gnome, Xfce, Cinnamon, Mate or whatever
@saxnot
That is 𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘤𝘪𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘺 what I was pointing out, and is 𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘤𝘪𝘴𝘦𝘭𝘺 the reason why I reject the notion that switching to Linux is difficult.
It's why I call it a 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘤𝘦𝘪𝘷𝘦𝘥 difficulty, as these issues, as you point out, exist just the same on 𝘢𝘯𝘺 platform.
@…neil @aerion @tomstoneham my girlfriend never used any other operating system and is using Linux Mint.
She installed it herself after I recommended it as a distro.
Thinking about the people at my work who look at E-Mail and online planning tools all day I am very confident they would have zero problems using any linux distro really.
Perhaps they are glad the Microsoft jank is gone. And the next time they have a tech problem it's not like Windows would have helped it resolve it themself
@…[email protected] @aerion @tomstoneham I have this fact ob good authority
normies have no problem with using linux based operating systems
EDIT: neil does not want to be in this convo anymore
@saxnot
My girlfriend has resisted computers for most of her adult life. When she finally got a computer, she just couldn't get on with Windows.
A friend switched her to Linux Mint with Cinnamon, and she felt it made using her computer much, much easier.
A new laptop purchase introduced her to Windows 10, and it totally threw her, so I replaced it for her with EndeavourOS + KDE Plasma (the why is another story).
She's had no issues with it, has not complained about KDE or asked for Cinnamon back.
When I asked her how she felt about the change, she said it looks a bit different visually, and apps have different names, but everything is in the same place and it fundamentally works no different from "the other Linux" (read: Cinnamon).
Also, she struggles on her mum's Mac, and hates how macOS works.
@…[email protected] @aerion @tomstoneham instead of talking
just do it
I've seen many people switch to linux and it's not a big deal. Don't make a big deal out of it.
EDIT: neil no longer wants to be @'ed
@saxnot
I really wish it was as easy as "just do it".
The question I usually get is not "is it difficult to use?" but "can I use application 'X'?" (replace 'X' with MS Office, Photoshop, or any other application a user relies on).
If even 𝘰𝘯𝘦 application doesn't run on Linux, or requires switching to an equivalent but different application, I can just see and feel the 'wall' going up.
𝘛𝘩𝘢𝘵 is where the difficulty lies. A quick demonstration of Plasma or Cinnamon, or the Linux Mint customised versions of MATE or Xfce, usually removes any concerns they might have about how difficult it is to 'use' Linux.
@aerion @tomstoneham yeah very much true.
comparing "pre installed os" to "install linux" is apples to oranges comparison.
Hey "building your own electric car" is so much harder than "buying a gasoline car". "This proves electric cars are much more complicated!"
@Dragon @tomstoneham who is "they"?
The gaming companies?
The 60 year olds i mentioned?
Microsoft?
@saxnot @tomstoneham @neil Likely the likes of Microsoft under the guise of "for security"
I'm both cynical and pessimistic so I assume the worst.
@Dragon @tomstoneham this already is a reality today
And yeah it's no guarantee that "disable secure boot" will always be an option
> who is "they"?
Governments / legislatures, or those who control pinch points in terms of hardware or BIOS/UEFI.
In essence, the line of thinking is that "just install Linux" is only viable when one can, indeed, install Linux.
@…[email protected] @Dragon @tomstoneham linux is the most used operating system in the world
all the cloud, websites, android, dishwashers etc are using Linux
On the desktop it's not used that much but let's be honest the desktop is dying
> let's be honest the desktop is dying
I am sceptical of this. Much though I'd love to do my work on a dishwasher.
@kaasbaas good thing you didn't particiapte on thr discussion
because after this toot of yours everyone would have muted your messages
you get the respect you show others
@Dragon @tomstoneham
@kaasbaas don't bother answering. I muted you too
@neil @saxnot @Dragon @tomstoneham I'd think as a a lawyer you'd need to be wary of potential money-laundering claims.
More on topic, I'd think there'll still be *some* use for desktop environments, for (just as examples) software development and work that involves a lot of writing.
@kimvanwyk @saxnot @Dragon @tomstoneham
> I'd think as a a lawyer you'd need to be wary of potential money-laundering claims.
I am sure that one could spin it positively, and come away with clean hands.
@kimvanwyk @…[email protected] @Dragon @tomstoneham yeah software development will probably always happen on a full fledged computer
desktop has been indecline for decades and most normies do their things on a tablet or phone
it's not a baseless prediction
I was stating changing usage patterns of the last decade
@saxnot @kimvanwyk @Dragon @tomstoneham
> most normies do their things on a tablet or phone
I can understand this for personal computing, but is that true for business activities? I imagine that lots of computers are, and will continue to be, produced for businesses.
@Dragon @saxnot @kimvanwyk @tomstoneham
> But lets face it Neil most of those will be Windows.
Yep (and users might want WireGuard on them!).
And then when they come onto the secondhand market, potentially other OSs. Most of my machines are ex-corporate laptops.
@…[email protected] @kimvanwyk @Dragon @tomstoneham
don't look at me
look at the available usage statistics
@…[email protected] @kimvanwyk @Dragon @tomstoneham for example https://datareportal.com/reports/digital-2025-sub-section-device-trends
don't know if it's the best source but it was the first one that was not about fashion advertisement
The article starts with
> The number of people using laptops and desktops to access the internet continues to decline, with just 61.5 percent of online adults using these devices to access connected services in Q3 2024.
@…[email protected] @kimvanwyk @Dragon @tomstoneham > 72.3 percent – still went online via laptop and desktop devices in Q1 2020, […]
> Today, [February 2025] that figure has fallen to 53.6 percent
https://datareportal.com/reports/digital-2025-sub-section-device-trends
copied because mastodon tends to not read/click links.
And there are even better statistics out there for people willing to research more than the 15 sec I have done
EDIT: neil no longer wants to be @'ed
@…[email protected] @knapjack i guess that might happen
but I guess "expires" just means that officisl software is not accepted and non-official neither and thus the device is bricked.
That's far more likely to happen
EDIT: dropped neil because they desired so
don't add them when responding to me
Sean Lynch
Neil Brown
Tom Stoneham
saxnot
sounddrill 
Eggs now in different baskets.
Ærion
Dragon
DeManiak 🇿🇦
Kim van Wyk
Jack