TIL (Today I learned) that writing websites with simple HTML and CSS is now called "post-framework". Well. I did "post-framework" even before frameworks existed and I never stopped writing that little bit of HTML and CSS needed for static pages myself. I guess I'm so old that it is considered being young again :) (frantically adding "20+ years of experience and practice with post-framework web design" to my CV ;)
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@jwildeboer I wonder what they would call writing their own browser in C++ 🤣
I did that once in simpler times...
Pre-framework, post-framework... gol'dangit we _invented_ the frameworks! You kids and your damned frameworks. Back in my day we served html, css and cgi directly from our undergrad accounts at `school.edu/~username/`
@kaylon @abogical @jwildeboer yeah? and how'd that work our for ya mee-maw when Netscape Navigator 1.2 didn't support _helvetica_.
(answer: you rendered that text as an IMAGE with a lens flare in Corel Photopaint.)
@grumpyoldtechie @jwildeboer "preposterous framework" 
(sorry, could not resist)
I used m4 once to make pages that could be rendered either into HTML or LaTeX.
I'd call that "pre-framework" ;-)
The good old times, when putting a w3c validator button to the end of the page was a thing - because each small change done (with vi, directly on the web server) might break the correctness of the html ...
BTW, still existing: https://validator.w3.org/
@jwildeboer @neuimneuland at one point in my JavaScript journey frameworks (they weren't called that yet) were getting popular, particularly jQuery. I shied away from them because it seemed like a huge amount of library to load just for relatively simple stuff, and the extra dependency didn't seem worth it. Plus, the idea that I'd sink time into learning something that would perhaps quickly become obsolete wasn't appealing, when using the standardized APIs was not much harder and helped keep me honest about HTML element complexity and design.
document.querySelectorAll is pretty great actually!
So now I guess I'm also a post-framework veteran? Ha.
@tiotasram @jwildeboer @neuimneuland someone I worked with once called me a vanillaJS fangirl 😂 made my day
I feel like "kids these days" dont know just how far vanilla HTML, CSS, and a lil js script can take you.
And that’s true when there’s so little vanilla you can barely see it!
Yeah. I guess that's the main point here. HTML (+CSS+JS) was designed as primary user written language. To be extended whenever new features are needed (like it right at the start by addition of htbin, later CGI).
What developers did was treating it rather like some immutable low level ISA one needs to build on - with explicite forcing of features, not trusting standard implementation or user intend.
A long sad story.
@fay @jwildeboer @neuimneuland
Which makes Frameworks like passports and border controll? Invented during war, never went away afterwards?
@jwildeboer This is the way to go.. again!
We have made development so complicated with all kinds of frameworks, libraries, managing tools and other cruft, it's ridiculous. Tools don't guarantee the outcome.
I have been doing webdev for 15+ years now. Simple(r) always wins. I am back to CSS only. Being able to move things between pc's and continue coding. No extra tools, processors etc. It's a great workflow.. 'post-framework'? Sure, name it that.
@jwildeboer I guess at some point we need to teach and unlearn them.
Crap, I just came here to build things for me :D
For me that's more of 30+ , I wrote my first home page in 1995.
(If I ever need a CV again, I presume 15+ sounds better because not THAT old)
@unixwitch @jwildeboer I am going to add @jaredwhite Sorry Jared.
I am listening to your podcast (https://jaredwhite.com/podcast/129/) and while.. also browsing your website a bit. Lots of things going on, and.. another OG developer.
Had to point you here, grouping some OG-dev's :D
I’m often asked how I get so much done, and it always surprises me because I usually feel like I’m chronically behind in everything. But after a month of significant progress on a bunch of projects and getting a whole lot accomplished, I’m in the mood to discuss productivity. 😎 Oh yeah, let’s get into the weeds with…timeboxing, and work logging, and outlining! It’s gonna be totally great.
@hbons @jwildeboer Sure, that's a step higher, going to make parts dynamic, singular. You should!
Point is, getting to build a webpage needs very little tools. (Editor and a browser). I guess the art is coming back! :)
ps: Regarding the 15+ thing, I wrote my first HTML in the Netscape Editor. Netscape.. so good!
@hbons I've had sites there. Good times! I get what you are saying, it was so magical.
Then came Flash!
Is this little thing I made a post-framework too?
I don't know, but it tries to be post-React at least.
@haitchfive @jwildeboer I'm not familiar with Go.
This 'post-framework' (which eq 'pre-framework') idea:
- Write HTML by hand
Done!
Additionally:
- Template parts, sections for ease and maintainability (might need a server something)
So, HTML, a (template) parser. How we use to do it, how we build thing internet-thing, how we will be doing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUiEoFRLlno&pp=ygUTZGhoIGxlc3MgZnJhbWV3b3Jrcw%3D%3D
Sure, some cases excempt.. Point is, we need very little to build the web. Less == better.
Uhhhg...DHH, no thank you...
See, this is how division plays out. Even though I get it, I was point you to the signal, not the container. Life gets easier, and your improvements faster if you mold life your way.
Listening to someone who doesn't hold your views, isn't letting yours go. Again, I am point to signal, not politics. What weighs heavier for you is your decission.
Actually, excess tooling guarantees a shit outcome - fragile, hard to maintain, and uses more energy.
Funny how many people can't do even a simple site without WorstPress.
@barbra @jwildeboer And if WordPress, can't build without Plugins.
I guess people have learned to ride the bike, fallen off, and are re-evaluating how much is too much :)
There can be sense in that. If anyone at some point decides to add a cache-layer for performance... this would count as the same, just from the start.
I think the global point is understanding HTML, being able to code stuff yourself and don't use more then you need.
Don't choose the ferrari to do some small groceries.
Although.. V8? I might do the above. Maybe not the best example :D
Nowadays there are some features in HTML5 that could really warrant upgrading. For example more semantic markup helping screen reader users.
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