Mastodawn

RE: https://tldr.nettime.org/@remixtures/116356810759725972

Does Israel have a right to exist?

Yes, about as much as Nazi Germany or any other state guilty of settler colonialism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Which is to say none whatsoever.

What we have, as human beings, is the right to hold Israel responsible for its crimes, bring it to justice, and extract reparations to ease the plight of the survivors (even though even that won’t undo the incalculable suffering and loss). But we’re not doing that. And by not doing that we are failing our own test of humanity.

Joanne Jacobs 18h ago

@aral the people have a right to exist. The government dies not have that right because they have broken international laws on genocide.

I know you will say the people voted for the government, but the people have not supported the war on Gaza or indeed the war against Iran and other parts of the Gulf.

Aral Balkan 18h ago

@joannejacobs When 82% of your population supports the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and when those people are actively involved in commiting genocide, it becomes very difficult to separate the people from the state.

https://zeteo.com/p/its-not-just-netanyahu-a-lot-of-israelis

And it’s not getting better.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-892032

We didn’t say Nazi Germany shouldn’t exist but Nazis are fine. Nazis are not fine. Nazis will never be fine.

(In case there’s any doubt, Zionists are the Nazis in this analogy.)

It's Not Just Netanyahu. A Lot of Israelis Want Genocide, Too

Recent polling reveals that the ‘genocide fever’ in Israeli society has reached its logical conclusion: ‘If we can get rid of them all, why not?’

Zeteo

Joanne Jacobs 18h ago

@aral look you know I agree that the egregious acts of the state are war crimes. I'm just not willing to accept that the agenda of some represents all.

@joannejacobs @aral the right to exist doesn't hinge on any of this though.

The right to self-determination exists, but no country has a right to exist. I can rattle off at least a dozen countries that no longer exist, with not a question of that supposed right.

The only country that is afforded a "right to exist", not by law or treaty, is Israel

@joannejacobs
To be frank, whe you leave your homes in Europe or America and travel to an occupied territory that implements apartheid against the indigenous people, actively stealing their land and displacing the original inhabitants… there’s not much daylight between the acts of the government and the governed. By participating in the occupation you’re actively supporting its agenda. This literally the nazi bar parable.

Joanne Jacobs 16h ago

@Mogleg absolutely, and indeed it is the history of almost every continent on earth. I live in Australia - a land that has been occupied and has disenfranchised the indigenous culture that lived here for 60,000 years before the white man, and probably before most cultures were established across the globe. I'm part of the problem, certainly. I've voted for a Voice to Parliament for our First Nations people. That constitutional change was rejected by the majority. But I'll continue to do what I can to forward their needs because change comes with persistence in the face of this prejudice. @aral

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral You’re right that the Israeli people have a right to exist in safety and dignity—just as Palestinians and all people do. However, the argument that the Israeli government has broken international law—including prohibitions on genocide, apartheid, and war crimes—is not just rhetorical; it is supported by reports from the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the International Criminal Court (ICC). 1)

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral These bodies have documented systematic violations, including the blockade of Gaza, settlement expansion, and military actions that disproportionately harm civilians.
As for the claim that ‘the people did not support the war on Gaza or Iran’: Israel is indeed a democracy, but its democracy has consistently elected governments that pursue these policies. 2)

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral The current government, the most far-right in Israel’s history, was democratically elected in 2022 with a clear mandate for its approach to Palestine. While there have been protests—such as those against judicial reforms or specific military actions—there has been no mass refusal of conscription, no widespread civil disobedience, and no significant electoral shift away from hawkish policies. 3)

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral Polls, like the one shared, show substantial public support for actions that violate international law, including the expulsion of Palestinians and the use of extreme military force.
Democracy does not absolve a population of responsibility for the actions of its government, especially when those actions are well-documented and widely publicised. 4)

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral The ‘silent majority’ argument ignores the reality that silence and compliance in the face of oppression are forms of consent. If Israeli society truly opposed these policies, its collective power to demand change—through protests, votes, or refusal to participate in military actions—would be evident. Until then, the government’s actions reflect the will, or at least the tolerance, of its people. 5)

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@joannejacobs @aral This is not about denying Israelis their right to exist; it’s about recognising that no people’s right to exist supersedes the rights of others to live free from occupation, apartheid, and genocide. Sovereignty is not absolute—it is conditional on adherence to international law and human rights. When a state violates these principles, its legitimacy is rightfully called into question, regardless of its democratic processes. 🔚

Joanne Jacobs 16h ago

@TheComfortableSpotPodcast I acknowledge everything you have noted here. It is all true. It is appalling that there has been this complicity, this capitulation to a morally bereft agenda. And yet I cannot condemn and label an entire people with the acts even of a majority. The only way to change a culture is to provide a space for that change. That space comes when a few in that culture see a chance for revolution. @aral

Aral Balkan 16h ago

@joannejacobs @TheComfortableSpotPodcast Zionism is founded on settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and genocide. How do you reform that? You might as well try and reform Nazism.

If I come to your home tomorrow, kill half your family, take up three quarters of your house, torture your remaining relatives, and make you live at gunpoint do you try and reform me or get me the hell out of your house? Do I have a right to exist in your house?

Joanne Jacobs 16h ago

@aral it is indeed the hardest thing of all to change the minds of fundamentalists. And yet it is what we must do. And there are two ways of doing it: with violence or without.

I'm for doing everything I can to do it without violence. @TheComfortableSpotPodcast

Ken M Sweeney 15h ago

@joannejacobs @aral
If we are to guage legitimacy by other examples, does Israel deserve this level of protection? Far more influential and important states and nations have been wiped off the map for much less - Poland, The Ottoman empire and Yugoslavia being an excellent examples.

Ken M Sweeney 15h ago

@joannejacobs @aral The question isn’t whether Israel has a right to exist, but rather whether the current form of Israel has a right to exist.

Joanne Jacobs 15h ago

@TheComfortableSpotPodcast I would argue the best approach does not protect a government, but rather, provides an opportunity for those who do oppose the regime to be heard, supported and empowered to act. @aral

Ken M Sweeney 15h ago

@joannejacobs @aral This isn’t a typical colonial situation. In Rhodesia and South Africa, indigenous majorities were oppressed by a minority. What you’re suggesting is that the Zionist majority in Israel—who hold power—suddenly advocate for dismantling their own system. Unlike African colonialism, the opposition in Israel lacks the numbers to drive meaningful change, now or in the future.

Ken M Sweeney 15h ago

@joannejacobs @aral
It’s important to acknowledge that Israel was founded amid violence, with many early Zionist militant groups later becoming the IDF. This raises the question: Is violence ever necessary? As an Irish person, I’d be a hypocrite not to recognize the parallels with our own War of Independence in the 1920s. If I accept that struggle, I must also acknowledge the Palestinian one. History is often written by the victors, and right now, Israel holds the pen.

Ken M Sweeney 16h ago

@aral Any state that habitually subjugates, abuses, or harms another state, race, or group of people forfeits its right to claim sovereignty.