Mastodawn

felixlinker 1d ago

I'm a big fan of this explanation/rant from Andrew Murphy.

Taken as a whole, there are many bottlenecks in a corporate software development process. The "load-bearing" calendar is a great example!

Speeding up code creation just increases pressure on the bottleneck, which decreases throughput.

https://andrewmurphy.io/blog/if-you-thought-the-speed-of-writing-code-was-your-problem-you-have-bigger-problems

If you thought the speed of writing code was your problem - you have bigger problems | Debugging Leadership

AI coding tools are optimising the wrong thing and nobody wants to hear it. Writing code was already fast. The bottleneck is everything else: unclear requirements, review queues, terrified deploy cultures, and an org chart that needs six meetings to decide what colour the button should be.

Debugging Leadership

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

So why are we still trying to optimize code creation?

For decades, people with power - executives and product people - have been shifting the blame for strategy failures and poor market insight onto development "productivity."

This AI moment should be incredibly clarifying. Like, it should be the reductio ad absurdum of a productivity-centric approach.

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

The fact that we are *not* seeing wildly improving software all around us tells us everything we need to know.

There is no flourishing of value delivery, new product categories, more needs being satisfied better. It’s the opposite.

All we are seeing is decreases in quality, because 👏 code 👏 creation 👏 is not 👏 the problem.

Dualtronic 1d ago

@elizayer You gave me an idea: maybe it's because writing code is still seen as this mystical dark art that needs to be wrestled from the hands of those creepy wizards, pardon, programmers. A magic mirror on the wall that never says "you can't do that" is just the thing.

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

Exactly. EXACTLY! I think it's a direct response to the growth of mystical-feeling engineer power.

Aedius Filmania ⚙️🎮🖊️1d ago

The good news is :

Open source maintainers see an increase in the quality of AI security tools, it will soon be in the hands of the bad actors.

Then it will be mandatory to do good software and ( i will make the leap of faith that ) you have to understand the business needs to create a simple software that handle the issues.

Wil van Antwerpen 1d ago

@Aedius @elizayer there's just going to be less open source

Aedius Filmania ⚙️🎮🖊️1d ago

@wila @elizayer

All code is open source when you push it with a map file.

Wil van Antwerpen 1d ago

@Aedius @elizayer when it is javascript yes.
I wasn't talking about less slop.
There will be more of that.

Grassroots Joe 1d ago

30 years ago I taught Structured Systems Analysis and Design classes and consulted on client projects using the CASE (computer aided software engineering AKA data and process modeling software) tool I resold.

The core purpose was to ensure a joint correct understanding with the business of the requirements new or purchased software (components) needed to meet and designing clean and supportable software to implement those requirements.

You won't be shocked to learn ...
@elizayer

Grassroots Joe 1d ago

that upper management never caught on to the superior effectiveness and efficiency of building the correct solution the first time despite not a line of code getting written for many months.

I did a BPR project ( I didn't know it was a BPR project as the book hadn't been written yet) to migrate a smallish non-profit from a cranky and poorly designed mainframe system to client server.
We spent 9 months modeling the requirements and ...

Grassroots Joe 1d ago

system design.
It took us 2 months and change to code 90% of the requirements. Rolled it out and completely reorganized their workflow without a serious issue.
They ran on that Paradox for DOS system for many years and grew their business throughout without the need to expand their core staff while supplying greatly enhanced service to their customers.

They're still out there - https://www.cgfns.org/

Serving global nurses and allied healthcare workers with credentials evaluation and career mobility since 1977.

CGFNS International, Inc. has been the world's largest credentials evaluation organization for the nursing & allied health professions since 1977

CGFNS International, Inc.

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@joeinwynnewood @Aedius Amazing! I love a success story like that.

Of course... not all engineering teams are successful at the up-front work. Often out of a combination of weak engineering skills and the wrong environment...

I've come across very few senior managers who have the skill to create an environment where this is possible! Would love to see a recognition of this in leadership circles :sigh:

Cap Ybarra 1d ago

@elizayer this has never been about quality and only about the business class trying to free themselves from those damned uppity engineers

Mike Roach 1d ago

@elizayer Exactly! I’ve been trying to explain to people, especially those pushing AI at work, that writing code is not the hard part of my job. Identifying the real-world problems and designing solutions that are as minimalist and simple as possible are the hard parts. The code is an implementation detail.

Mike Torr 1d ago

@mroach @elizayer Agree! The hardest part of the job doesn't need to be done at a screen and keyboard. I've been known to pace up and down my garden while designing an algorithm in my head.

robtherunt🌱💚1d ago

@macronencer @mroach @elizayer
When I was working, I would regularly solve a development issue while in the shower. I think it’s the brain being unstressed that does that.

Mike Roach 1d ago

@robtherunt @macronencer @elizayer Same! I’ve half jokingly said my bathroom is the most productive room in my home office setup. Sitting on the toilet and lots of a-ha moments

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@mroach @robtherunt @macronencer Heck yeah. So let's not even get started on the ways RTO undermines effectiveness....

Mike Roach 1d ago

@elizayer @robtherunt @macronencer Oh let me count the ways…

When I do make an appearance at the office my parting words are usually: I’m headed home so I can get some work done.

Return to office != Return to work

Spazcosoft 1d ago

@elizayer to be 100% completely super fair, we are seeing a massive increase in scams. So AI is good for something. Scams. It’s good for scams.

@spazcosoft @elizayer Wasn't this always? Newly hyped stuff is used for scam, or porn, or both.

kira for scale 1d ago

@elizayer i think about this. according to the promises, all the little snags and bugs and oversights in all the software i use should be gone by now. "everyone's focusing on bigger things" doesn't excuse it, i was given the expectation these types of fixes should have been trivial and quick. computing should be better than ever, or at least as good as it was in the 2010s

@elizayer yes, this. Code creation hasn’t been an issue for a long, long, long time. See “no silver bullet” (https://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks_1986_-_No_Silver_Bullet.pdf) written in *1986*.

Ladder Logic 🇨🇦1d ago

@elizayer
Almost all of the code written by the major software companies since the late 80’s has been bloatware. Especially operating systems. The days when programming was an art and minimizing resource usage was the primary consideration are long gone. If that code is what AI and these LLM’s are being “trained” on then expect software to continue its downward spiral.

ulveon.net (on derg.social)1d ago

@elizayer Claude Code found a 23-year-old Linux vulnerability, the kind a regular human security auditor would have taken weeks or months to find (or in this case, 23 years). https://mtlynch.io/claude-code-found-linux-vulnerability/

Claude Code Found a Linux Vulnerability Hidden for 23 Years

Claude Code has gotten extremely good at finding security vulnerabilities, and this is only the beginning.

DieKeh®seite 1d ago

@ulveon so this case justifies bazillions of dollars to be invested in needless serverfarms? And if that vulnerability wasnt discovered for 23 years it was prolly so well hidden that it was not an issue at all. Think about it.

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@diekehrseite Well, @ulveon doesn't say it explicitly, but this case *was* an interesting example of where we could no longer say the LLM "just generating code."

The fact that it can succeed at that level of sophisticated analysis suggests that when we have clear success criteria (e.g. "vuln found"), the LLM can do very hard things indeed.

Agree this will be really interesting to watch!

DieKeh®seite 1d ago

@elizayer
well … there is always a „but“.
Mine is: pattern recognition is fine and prolly helpful but doesnt need this hillarious amount of serverfarms at all. IMHO

Jane Doe 11h ago

@ulveon @elizayer If a vulnerability hasn’t been identified or exploited in over two decades, I’m not sure it’s that important to fix.

Nienkez 🔻1d ago

@elizayer @ArtHarg AI only solves one problem: paying people wages.

DieKeh®seite 1d ago

@elizayer word!

Gary McGraw 1d ago

@elizayer workaday devs are serfs. Software architects are more crucial than ever. Architects emerge from jr devs through apprenticeship. Go.

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@cigitalgem Yeah, I also want to be honest with ourselves.

At least in the US, people change jobs so often -- and promotion practices are so shonky -- that the jr dev-architect flow was already under threat at scale 😕

Gary McGraw 19h ago

@elizayer agreed.

René Seindal 1d ago

The problem AI is meant to solve is wages.

They don't care if quality sucks, if they can avoid paying wages.

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@seindal @elizayer

Yup if they could produce code that was equal to humans but saved 50 cents they would destroy a million folks lively hood.

René Seindal 1d ago

@raymierussell @elizayer

Somebody said the the billionaires want to own what you need to survive.

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@seindal @elizayer

Yeah, they don't just want the mean of production but the means of existance.

Jos noemt het gewoon melk 1d ago

@elizayer
WAS not the problem. 🫠

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@goleztrol hahaha fair!

Charles A-M 1d ago

@elizayer I had been looking at a reply to another post in your thread, I was trying to square my agreement with the anti-AI-fad sentiment with the fact that I don't want to bring telephone switchboard operators back. This gets right at it, thank you!

Scott the F is implicit Baxter 1d ago

@elizayer It's yet another attempt to make coding work for folks who lack logical rigor, by adding another layer of abstraction. The results are predictable.

Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱23h ago

It started with visual entertainment, say movies - basically no-one makes new films any more, because the VC suits won't fund it. So everyone does remakes of "shit that worked last time". Now, the same thing is happening to software.

Counter-examples of course exist in the FOSS world.

/c64/youth.sid 21h ago

@elizayer I think of LLM’s as pattern re-use; applying learned patterns from old data to new situations. Good for menial tasks that are too boring for humans, but not for coming up with radical new things.

David Pollak 20h ago

@elizayer @hbons give me some time. I’ve only been using LLMs to code for a few months… so far I’ve only managed to write an operating system https://codeberg.org/dpp/meows
A new scripting language https://codeberg.org/dpp/meowscript
An eBPF to FPGA converter https://codeberg.org/dpp/lycaon
And some misc utils
But this is weekend work

meows

A vibe coded OS that is a blend of microkernel and Erlang

Codeberg.org

@dpp @elizayer @hbons maybe llm will bring high achievers closer together so they can develop a really new innovative computing baseline

trisweb 16h ago

@dpp @elizayer @hbons Who’s using it, and what for?

So you created some things quickly. Now they exist. If that’s all they ever do, you spent (likely) thousands of dollars on agent time to create something for no reason.

So what?

Cedric Rossi 7h ago

@dpp and somehow, all these boatloads of incredible new projects (not picking specifically at yours) managed to have approximatively 0 impact. (I’m talking about positive impact of course, the negative ones are well documented).
But as long as you have fun helping destroying society, you do you! Otherwise, maybe pick up playing ukulele or something?

@elizayer @hbons

David Pollak 5h ago

@ced @elizayer @hbons we are posting via a tool that was developed by an imperial government to ensure communications could survive after a nuclear war.

We are using a toxic form of communication (oh… yeah… mastodon is toxic light) that has destroyed the trust in institutions and is the proximate cause of the rise of authoritarian regimes

Yes, I use tools that have negative externalities.

I use these tools to explore and create.

You don’t like it, ignore me.

Cedric Rossi 5h ago

“The world is bad already, so let’s make it worse” 👏
Have fun !

@elizayer @hbons

Hylke Bons 🥜4h ago

@ced @dpp @elizayer I don't think AI use is productive or in our (the working class) interest. but let's be nice and people who do decide to use it for whatever reason are not bad people.

Cedric Rossi 4h ago

@hbons true, and not implying people are bad, just maybe not thinking about the consequences, or not caring about them (in which case I see no reason to interact with them anymore)

@elizayer There's the expression of resonating strongly with something, in this case the rumble from the resonation is deafening. 🫨

We have a really small team at work, with widely varying levels of experience. In this team I've been the firehose that produces more code than anybody can review, if just left to my devices like in the olden days. These days, with the introduction of mandated reviews and sprints and whatnot, I spend maybe a week having fun coding and then couple of weeks spinning wheels and getting bored and frustrated while waiting for reviews. And now they're starting to *mandate* use of AI agents for work "to accelerate" *wild handwaving* everything. For deitys sake.

I suppose their vision of the workflow is for the humans to describe what they want, have AI generate the code and then the human can review it by themselves. It does change the review dynamics for sure, but it doesn't remove the bottleneck - it would still be review, just going even slower because the human is now required to understand the random slop generated my a thing that doesn't think in the process of creation. Vitally, it also eliminates the sanity check of another human being in the loop. We all sometimes get carried away and lose perspective, and it takes another person boggling at your creation from a distance, "what the heck are you trying to accomplish here?" 😄

Finally, that workflow would also eliminate the single item I actually care about my work: lovingly crafting and carving code. I will not be sitting around reviewing AI slop for the rest of my career.

@elizayer @beep I was literally just talking to someone about #Waymo for this same reason. Tech has reached the point where it has become more than abundantly obvious to anyone who dares to ask a single question that the objective is no longer the improvement of anyone’s life but the #EpsteinClass’s. Why is taking a Waymo better than taking an Uber? Because now someone’s out of a job. Why is #AI better than a software developer? Because now someone’s out of a job

Elizabeth Ayer 1d ago

@BmeBenji @beep

I generally agree!

On the narrow Waymo point, a few things have made me reconsider recently:

- Cyclists who feel Waymos are more predictable and less likely to make the equivalent of attentiveness mistakes. Or to be actively hostile.

- Women and older people who've said they feel vulnerable alone in a car with a driver.