Mastodawn

They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.🤡

The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.🤷🏿‍♂️

The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."

It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.🤡"

Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸

@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.

Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.

We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.

Raymond Russell 3d ago

@realtegan @mekkaokereke
My pet hate.
When you start to "means test" something that really should be universal the means test itself costs money to administer and you create a barrier to some of those who should be benefiting but may not be able to navigate the red tape required for many many reasons.

Nicolai von Neudeck 3d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to make software for calculation of the distribution of social welfare (we were actually hard limited in how much we could give, because we were the student government redistributing money between students, so it was justified in my opinion) and oh dear is it not free to figure out if someone should get something if you calculate how rich or poor they are

Raymond Russell 3d ago

@nicolai
classic paradox in the UK welfare system is that right leaning people will complain about fraud in the system. Its true that there is fraud BUT there is 10 times (at least) in unclaimed benefits because the system is so difficult to navigate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yv0e9yjexo

Millions missing out on benefits and government support, analysis suggests

A report from Policy in Practice says awareness, complexity and stigma are the main barriers stopping people claiming.

BBC News

Eric Lawton 3d ago

💯
And we already have the right machinery to recover the money from those who don't need it: it's called the tax system. Fox that instead of introducing program-by-program assessments.

@realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft

Raymond Russell 3d ago

@EricLawton @realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft

Absolutely, if you tax those who can afford it then there should no complaints about them getting 'free' stuff as they are getting out from a system that they have paid the most into.

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke in Scotland we used to means test prescriptions. It turned out that the money saved couldn't possibly justify the cost of administration (mainly because people on many prescriptions are highly likely to be unable to work) so they just made them free for everyone.

That's how most benefits should work. Although I do have some sympathy for the idea the UK has where everyone gets child benefit but higher rate taxpayers who get it pay more tax.

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Yup I have benefited from free prescriptions in Scotland.

Another side effect of free prescription is better compliance with taking medication.
When you need to fork out a tenner per item there is the temptation to not spend the money. This leads to further cost for the state down the line if people are not properly recovering from illness.

There are always unintended consequences of these things.

Free meals means better nutrition even for "rich kids".

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke yes, I'm sure there was a study that connected free prescriptions to lower attendance at hospital because people were taking their medicines

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to work with someone who did modelling to help NHS trusts in England to save money and the biggest thing they could do (it wasn't even close) was to keep people out of A&E. If you invest in prevention, it keeps people away from the expensive choke points.

I'm sure the same is true for other benefits. Keeping families housed and fed, assisted support to enter the workplace, etc. Keeping them away from courts and mental health services.

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke in IT we call it "shifting left" - fix the problem as close to the source as possible where it's cheaper and causes the last damage.

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Classic penny pinching creating more cost that it saves.

How much damage are pot holes doing to vehicles vs. the cost to maintain the roads at minimum standard?

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke councils generally don't pay for car repairs though. At least with prescriptions and A&E the NHS is responsible for the entire budget so it's easier to see

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke
But the folk who's vehicles get damaged pay council tax, road tax and general taxation which all contributes the council budgets. ;-)

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke that's the bigger picture, but the councils see that money whether or not the car gets damaged, and very few councils run their own buses to see the costs directly

Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK 1d ago

@craignicol @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Ipswich and Reading do run their own bus services, and even they are struggling with fixing potholes.

Also relatively affluent South Oxfordshire is struggling to maintain the roads (I was in all these areas just last weekend)

Its now a national crisis, I suspect made worse by 30 years of privatisation / outsourcing so there's a genuine shortage of "boots on the ground" to do the work across whole of England (I don't know if other UK countries are any better)

craignicol 1d ago

@vfrmedia @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I can confirm that potholes are also a problem in Scotland. Paying shareholders instead of workers by outsourcing essential work is definitely a factor everywhere

@raymierussell @craignicol @realtegan @mekkaokereke "we'd rather spend the free prescription money on denying prescriptions to 'undeserving' people" is the perfect encapsulation of the english political system

craignicol 1d ago

@ASprinkleofSage @raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke "undeserving people" is the root of so much poison in politics. Many USA historians would rightfully point to the Scottish Presbyterian work ethic for their roots, but the justification of colonization (and the USA "manifest destiny") feeds into that too

Raymond Russell 1d ago

@craignicol
Funny how the "undeserving" doesn't include them or their ain folk.

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell "I'm rich so of course I'm deserving"

Forgetting that every great fortune came from a great crime

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke 2 big advantages of the means testing by increased tax approach:

1. The people who have to fill out the red tape are likely already doing it - it's 1 additional question in the tax return, and there's no stigma attached to earning more money.

2. By basing it on income tax, it can be progressive and slowly roll from 100% to 0% as your income increases rather than a hard stop which means that for many people getting a job means less money in their pocket

craignicol 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke 2 big advantages of the means testing by increased tax approach:

1. The people who have to fill out the red tape are likely already doing it - it's 1 additional question in the tax return, and there's no stigma attached to earning more money.

2. By basing it on income tax, it can be progressive and slowly roll from 100% to 0% as your income increases rather than a hard stop which means that for many people getting a job means less money in their pocket

серафими многоꙮчитїи 1d ago

@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke every time I see a queue at the ticket barriers of a train station... "How much are we paying to install and maintain obstacles to using public transport?"

@realtegan @mekkaokereke Sigh. I really hate the mindset of “what if someone undeserving benefits.”

So what? Especially when it involves children.

Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸3d ago

@CStamp @mekkaokereke
Exactly.

And by giving everyone a free lunch and breakfast, it removes the stigma of "being too poor" to pay for lunch. That removes a tiny portion of the humiliation that comes from living in poverty.

Then there's the families who cannot figure out how to apply for the free lunch program - or don't have time because the parent(s) work extra jobs. Those children don't go hungry if every child is fed.

We need to stop gate-keeping who needs help, and just help people.

@realtegan @mekkaokereke If the US has trillions of $ to bomb children in other nations, they certainly have $ to feed its own kids. :(

Kids are the most importantly resource of any country.

Stephen Dioxide

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith

"The primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor."
- James Madison

@Steve @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

And at least Madison thought this was a feature rather than a bug. In fact Madison's obsessive worry that in a democracy the majority of the poor might vote in laws that would protect them from capitalist predation, which after all is how he and his founding buddies made their dough, is why we have a republic rather than a democracy. He lays it all out in the open in Federalist 10.

https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/federalist-no-10/

Federalist No. 10 by James Madison | Majority Rule v Minority Rights

Federalist No.10 written by James Madison defended the form of republican government proposed by the Constitution.

National Leader in Civic Education Resources | Bill of Rights Institute

Philip Mallegol-Hansen 3d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke Is it even *possible* for anyone (a child in particular) to be undeserving?

Seems like a pretty vital assumption that the answer is yes, but I’m not convinced.

Yenn dc ☂️2d ago

I *might* be willing to concede that people who can afford to (and do) put effort into keeping others from eating are [themselves undeserving].

That's about it tho.

MikeStok 3d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke if we’re going to give billionaires and corporations tax breaks then feeding kids without means testing seems like small change.

Ken Milmore 3d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke "Deserves got nothing to do with it"

Greg Bell 3d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke also, means testing is expensive, hard, and sucks. The most cost-effective way to help everyone who deserves it, is to help everyone.

George B 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Most American thing is making 100 people suffer to avoid 1 freeloader.

@gbargoud But what if the wrong children get to eat? @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Bruce Mirken 2d ago

@Thad @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke This whole discussion is so silly because any perceived problem is easily solved in 2 simple steps: 1) Feed ALL the kids. 2) Tax the rich so they pay their fair share of the program's total cost. Was that hard?

Bruce Mirken 2d ago

@Thad @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke And of course, the same principle applies to healthcare, child care, etc., etc. Not complicated with 10 seconds of thought.

@BruceMirken @Thad @gbargoud @realtegan @mekkaokereke Seems so logical.

Lukas Grossar 2d ago

@CStamp @BruceMirken @Thad @gbargoud @realtegan @mekkaokereke Yeah, but only if you're a socialist! /s

Bruce Mirken 2d ago

@tongpu @CStamp @Thad @gbargoud @realtegan @mekkaokereke Better that than a capitalist! 😂

@tongpu @BruceMirken @Thad @gbargoud @realtegan @mekkaokereke Or decent human?

cwicseolfor 2d ago

@Thad Headline concision. They ought to update theirs. @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Rupert V/2d ago

@gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke More like making 10,000 people suffer to create one millionaire and blaming it on the 100 "freeloaders".

CassandraVert 2d ago

That's about 1/3 of the country on the far right. It's not everyone. 1/3 on the left would say let's feed all the kids in case one is hungry. And the 1/3 in the middle vascillate.

Pulchra, Impudica, Beata 2d ago

@gbargoud @[email protected] @realtegan @mekkaokereke That's very Finnish thing too.

Jennifer 2d ago

@gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Also, we'll spend way more money to check that no one is free loading than it would cost to just let those 4 people who don't strictly *need* it, have it.

Passenger 2d ago

@jennifer @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Also, the best way to make sure that something is widely popular among all classes is to make it available to everyone without means-testing, and one of the best ways to make something into a mark of shame among among poor people and a target of derision among less poor people is to means-test it.

JimmyB (he/him)2d ago

@CStamp @gbargoud @mekkaokereke @jennifer @realtegan

And has been pointed out so many times: the right would rather 100 suffered than let 1 benefit when they are judged unworthy where the left would rather 100 benefited when perhaps they aren’t truly eligible than let 1 suffer. In the UK the return from prosecuting tax fraud is huge: but what do we prioritise?

I’m convinced by the argument that cruelty is the point

@gbargoud @aj @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke I remember hearing stories about Americans who, when donating an old coat to charity, would cut the buttons off first so that the charity recipient who got it didn’t feel too cocky about their new, unearned clothes

The Animal and the Machine 2d ago

@gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke
Harm is primary to racism.

Why help 99 white poor people and one Black person when you can harm the Black person. Racists believe the Black person must not be able to stand. It’s pure irrational fear of a 180 flip and them being enslaved. They mirror how they are onto how others will be.

All other instances, including on all whites, stem from this being set as a mental model of how to operate.

The model isn’t challenged on the poor because it would led to the same question on the colour, and remember, harm to Blacks IS the point. The route of poverty in the US is racism.

It is all, what magicians would call, ‘misdirection’.

As long as the core philosophy is on splitting society and not building the American Dream, you will get questions on freeloading.

Side note. There are no freeloaders to basic human rights.

We the people.

Renalia - #1 pizza downloader 2d ago

@gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke but of course, not the freeloaders in charge of everything, no, just the imaginary freeloader they point at who works 2000% harder than a billionaire ever had to.

Julie Hughes 2d ago

@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke and it's never a criteria applied to the rich

Humphrey Archer 3d ago

Trying to carve out a "special" class who are entitled to school lunch has always been a foolish approach that just adds layers of expensive policing that INEVITABLY wind up costing more than they save, and preventing some number of eligible students from getting serviced.

Unfortunately, some people are always more focused on the remote or insignificant risk of cheaters, than they are on make sure that they are servicing those who need it

Just make it free to all

wakejagr 3d ago

@screwturn @realtegan @mekkaokereke

Yup. School lunch should be free for all.

Want to make sure that people who make more than some arbitrary amount don't get freebies? Tax the rich.

Humphrey Archer 3d ago

School lunch
Education
Public transit
Basic healthcare

Should all be free at point of use

@realtegan @mekkaokereke

Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸3d ago

@screwturn @wakejagr @mekkaokereke

Life = Basic healthcare, school lunch
Liberty = Public transit
Pursuit of Happiness = Education

And so on. You can map the basics to the preamble and come up with a good list of things that Promote the General Welfare of the people and should be free at point of use in order to make a more perfect union.

Not everything should be free, but providing the basics should be the main purpose of a good government.

mauvedeity 1d ago

@screwturn this.