Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.
It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.
It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.
It must not be accommodated.
It must be stopped.
#MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights
Any technology is generally insufficient when it comes to resolve social deficits.
@divVerent @Em0nM4stodon No there are not. This is a fundamental fact of mathematical logic. Given a proposed age verification system you can prove that it's either trivially bypassed (doesn't actually verify age) or violates key privacy properties.
Em's point is spot-on. If you think of this as a problem to be solved, you are going to be wrong and you are going to be a useful fool for fascists.
@divVerent If you don't want them confronted with this, but it still exists, all you're doing is setting them up not to be equipped to deal with it once they do. And either way they're still stuck living in a world ruled by adults whose brains are rotted on this stuff. I get that this is all very unpleasant and people want an easy solution, but there is none short of attacking the root problem.
If you think hiding it from children (not with trojan internet passport schemes, which are a non starter, but as a parent or whatever) is best, you do you. I think educating and conveying values to them so that they can see the rot for what it is and be ready to protect themselves and fight it is probably better.
The children will be confronted with so much if we don't solve issues with tech bros at the source.
And soon enough everything will seem small compared to the climate catastrophe, which those tech bros have a big part in.
@divVerent And first results from Australia are in. Guess what. A net negative for kids.
It's not actually about kids in the first place.
@divVerent @dalias why isn't it going to happen?
We are in a bad spot now, but... the bubble is popping. A bubble that pretty much all of survailence capitalism is involved in.
Politically things are heating up.
The USA's control is also breaking across the world.
Pretty much all the major companies are involved with a single scandal that is shaking up leadership in several places.
People are actively pushing back against Ring and tearing down Flock cameras in a push agaiinst survailence capitalism.
With such a turbulant time, why couldn't we successfullly land in a space where abusive platforms are banned and a minimum standard of behavior is established?
You are missing the point.
Gatekeeping access is also a problem. It's the end of free speech and free access to information and the freedom to associate.
@Em0nM4stodon it's kind of (also) a parenting problem?
Having a proper dialogue and clear rules for all technology usage, whether TV, Tablets, Games or Social media isn't a goal to aspire to, it's the minimum bar required for responsible usage.
Parents, should also be expected to lead by example.
This is a film based on the book "Death of the Liberal Class" by journalist and Pulitzer prize winner, Chris Hedges. It charts the rise of the Corporate…
@Em0nM4stodon Hear hear!
I'm so tired of everyone like it's normal to upload official identification to every app and website. Without any proper background checks on those services!
This is literally how you get your identity stolen. So the exploitation isn't just happening at the panopticon level, these policies leave us all more vulnerable.
Even people who know better have to comply to function in this society. It's horrendous.
@Em0nM4stodon
Hey parents, your kids are in danger! But don't worry about it. We'll take care of it for you.
All we need to do is just check their ages. It'll be just like getting ID'd in a shop. You remember that don't you? Nothing to worry about.
[quietly]
We'll just take a photo of your children and their ID, put them in a database, track their every movement, record who their friends are, what they think, their every hope, dream and aspiration.
[back to normal volume]
So don't you worry, your children are safe with us and our billionaire backers, whoops, I mean with us, just us. We'll take care of everything. You can get back to feeding your own dopamine addictions, we'll claim your children are safer now, and big tech will have their giant, totally not sinister databases of real world identities that surely aren't going to come back to bite us later. Anyway that'll be for a different government to deal with.
But keep in mind as well, the proposed technical implementations are key to understanding and explaining how far from 'age verification' the goal is; how far down the surveillance road this all goes.
Age verification is a 'boolean' message to the relying party (or maybe a number of years old), not identity based at all.
If the requirement is 'you have to identify yourself (whispers "for age verification purposes") then the proposal is a requirement to remove privacy, not age verification.
This indeed! 👆
RE: https://federate.social/@jik/116115336623105287
What about this person's response?
https://mastodon.social/@jik@federate.social/116115336650467751
@Azarilh I do not have the time to review and speak about this specific product sadly. But in general, even if the token handed to the application requesting it is fully anonymized, the application collecting the initial data is still a potential attack vector and point of failure.
If it's proprietary, then it entirely relies on blind trust. If it's open source, then it must be fully audited regularly and built and reviewed with independent experts. But even if it was perfectly secure and private, the piece of ID showing the age must be uploaded somehow. Is the whole system secure? Where is this data stored? Does it get fully purged after or is the "deleted" information only flagged as deleted but kept in a database somewhere?
If all identifiable information is fully deleted, then what shows this token is reliably only used by an adult and not shared with a child? Where is this token stored? Can it be sold to others online? People have already done that with the supposedly secure and supposedly private World App. If identifiable information is kept to prevent this, then all the other problems mentioned above remain.
And regardless of all of this, having to upload an official ID, even in the imaginary scenario where we would magically have a perfectly privacy-preserving technology, gatekeeps the use of devices and access to information and communication from many people who, for various reasons, cannot have this official ID. It closes down the internet. We should never agree to that, let alone contribute to facilitating it. More information here: https://www.eff.org/issues/age-verification
Age verification (or age-gating) laws generally require online services to check, estimate, or verify all users’ ages—often through invasive tools like ID checks, biometric scans, or other dubious “age estimation” methods—before granting them access to certain online content or services. Governments in the U.S. and around the world are increasingly adopting these restrictive measures in the name of protecting children online. But in practice, these systems create dangerous new forms of surveillance, censorship, and exclusion. Technologically, the age verification process can take many forms: collection and analysis of government ID, biometric scans, algorithmic or AI-based behavioral or user monitoring, digital ID, the list goes on. But no matter the method, every system demands users hand over sensitive and immutable personal information that links their offline identity to their online activity. Once that valuable data is collected, it can easily be leaked, hacked, or misused. (Indeed, we’ve already seen several breaches of age verification providers.) EFF has long warned against age-gating the internet. Age verification technology itself is often inaccurate and privacy-invasive. These restrictive mandates strike at the foundation of the free and open internet. They are tools of censorship, used to block people from viewing or sharing information that the government deems “harmful” or “offensive.” And they create surveillance systems that critically undermine online privacy, chill access to vital online communities and resources, and burden the expressive rights of adults and young people alike. EFF.org/Age: A Resource to Empower Users Age-gating mandates are reshaping the internet in ways that are invasive, dangerous, and deeply unnecessary. But users are not powerless! We can challenge these laws, protect our digital rights, and build a safer digital world for all internet users, no matter their ages. This resource hub is here to help—so explore, share, and join us in the fight for a better internet.
And i guess this would be a good reason to not over-implement it for things we don't need it. It should not be used for social media, it's so unnecessary i think.
@Em0nM4stodon I know i keep trying to find a good side, while at the same time i disagree with age checks for most things. I am just trying to provoke thoughts about any side i care about.
I am all for privacy and a free Internet. I don't think age checks are the solution for social media, especially with the current methods. The EU eID would improve it but i would still rather have none at all in this context. Social media should be regulated, not age gated.
I wish I could force every legislator in favor of Age Verification to watch this amazing talk by Carissa Véliz, So that they understand the dangers of the surveillance infrastructure they are currently putting in place. You should watch it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSPRouBvgFE #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights #AgeVerification #MassSurveillance #Fascism
It is all about surveillance. Protecting children from serious harm on the Internet involves stopped malicious adults accessing child services, not stopping children accessing adult services.
@Em0nM4stodon What i hate about age checks in social media is that they say it's to protect children from the toxicity of social media.
How about governments try to actually regulate social media instead of outright banning children? Social media can be a good source of social integration and information ( being a queer child that lives with queerphobe parents, for instance, may only get queer support from people on the internet :/ ). 1/2
@Em0nM4stodon I disagree.
As a society, we have decided to age -gate some things. I, personally, think it's a good thing to slow down the pervasiveness of social media, as I think it's a good thing to slow down most addictive things.
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